[NAGDU] Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School Bashing contained within,

[Sunshine]

I never really had a concern regarding ownership. However, if ownership is really important to folks, then they should select schools that offer that option. I've not ever had a problem with schools removing my guides, but at one school, I filled out ownership papers after two years the second time around. However, I knew that no one would remove my guide's. I wish I had your orginal post, Heather, as it would be interesting to see where I score! Smiles! It looks like a great tool. Did you formulate this survey yourself? Smiles!

Seeing Eye is a great school, was my first and it will always be in my heart. I've only been to one other school, a very good one, but TSE truly is where I would like to be. My other school is good and I have no complaints, but TSE is definitely in my blood!   

----- Original Message -----
From: Lisa via NAGDU  <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"  <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, May 22, 2017 8:33 am
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School Bashing contained within,

>
>
> Hi Heather,
> 
> 
> wow, thanks so much for sharing this.
> 
> I'm in Germany and theoretically, this debate about ownership is not 
> important for me because over here things are handled very differently 
> in the guide dog system but I still answered the questions. I got only a 
> 20. I was a bit surprised, I had expected more. But these questions are 
> so important to understand how much of an issue ownership policies can 
> be for some people including myself.
> 
> I would feel seriously limited in handling my dog if I knew my school 
> would react to things like teaching him additional tasks or taking him 
> to this or that event negatively.
> 
> 
> Lisa
> 
> 
> 
> Am 22.05.2017 um 13:56 schrieb margo Downey via NAGDU:
> > I scored 41.
> >
> > Margo and Isis
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie Johnson
> > via NAGDU
> > Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 7:00 AM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Cc: Julie Johnson
> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School Bashing
> > contained within,
> >
> > I love this tool!  Thanks so much for creating and sharing it!  I score in
> > the mid to upper 20's'''x's early and I haven't finished my first
> > cup of coffee so math is not my strong suit right now. ininsmile*   I'm
> > also a long, long way from thinking about a new dog and whether or not I'll
> > attend a program for that dog.
> >
> > Anyway, I did want to add one thought to this excellent tool. Consider how
> > your life might change to include things that you do not currently
> > participate in.  I'm thinking in particular about sporting events, marches,
> > concerts, bars etc.  If you are a young person living at home or just
> > getting ready to go off to college, your life can look very different than
> > it does now in just a couple of years.  I live in a very small town that
> > simply does not have some of these things as an option for me to
> > participate in. I have no plans of moving, but life happens.
> > Might I want to do some of these things in the future?  Perhaps, and I do
> > think I'd like to have the option of working my dog if I felt it
> > appropriate.
> >
> > Julie
> > http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/22/2017 1:06 AM, Daryl via NAGDU wrote:
> >> This is a very thorough assessment tool. Depending on how I choose to
> >> view it, my score would probably be somewhere between 26 and 30. I'm
> >> half asleep, so my math could be wrong. In any case, it does tell me
> >> the type of school I would need to attend and that ownership does need
> >> to be a consideration with a successor dog. :com) thank you for this
> >> very thorough tool. :com)
> >>
> >> On May 21, 2017 10:31:46 PM MDT, Heather Bird via NAGDU
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >>>      Hi, Brenda and list. Well, I want to talk about low and high
> >>> risks related to ownership policies. I am not going to bash any
> >>> school or to debate whether ownership is a deal breaker issue,
> >>> because for some people it is and for some it is not. What I want to
> >>> do is to give you a
> >>>
> >>> rough outline of a scale you can use to look at how the situation of
> >>> a theoretical handler might increase or decrease their risk for an
> >>> issue of repossession of a guide taking place. You need not feel
> >>> compelled to
> >>>
> >>> share your answers with the list, but it might be helpful to you or
> >>> to other listers.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> So, let's assume a few things and then consider them. A. You are a
> >>> perfect handler, who receives the perfect dog, from a school who is
> >>> always fair. In that case, ownership would matter only in the
> >>> theoretical realm of blindness philosophy, but logistically it
> >>> wouldn't
> >>>
> >>> make any difference to the team. However, no handler, dog, team or
> >>> school is perfect. Next scenario. B. You are a great handler with a
> >>> dog
> >>>
> >> >from  a not very reasonable school. There is some risk, but not too
> >>> much
> >>> if the handler plays by the rules. C. You are not a very competent or
> >>> compliant handler, but your school is also not a very vigilant or
> >>> punitive school, and so, no issues related to repossession of the dog
> >>> are likely to arise. Finally, D. You are a substandard handler from a
> >>> very aware and parental school. You are almost certain to encounter
> >>> trouble. . As no school is perfect, every single school will on
> >>> occasion be unfair to a handler, just as at every school there will
> >>> be some handlers who screw up, that is life and the law of averages.
> >>> I know of at least one handler from the following schools who has
> >>> shared with me that they have had a dog taken back, where, if they
> >>> are being truthful,
> >>>
> >>> I absolutely feel that the school was in the wrong, in whole or in
> >>> part:
> >>> GDB, GEB, Fidelco, GDD, GDF, UGDA (note, no longer exists) GDT. I
> >>> know of at least one case of a handler engaging in handling and
> >>> treatment of
> >>>
> >>> the dog that I do think should have warranted repossession of the
> >>> dog, again, if they were being truthful, in which the school did
> >>> nothing at the following schools: GEB, GDF, GDB, GDD, Eye Dog
> >>> Foundation, UGDA (no
> >>>
> >>> longer exists) and Freedom Guide Dogs. Out of all of the schools in
> >>> the
> >>>
> >>> country I would recommend the Seeing Eye as your absolute best bet
> >>> for avoiding the pitfalls that can come from a school's ownership
> > policies.
> >>> I would say that Freedom is also a fairly low risk. I would say that
> >>> Fidelco and GDB would be one of your highest risk schools and all of
> >>> the rest fall somewhere in the middle of the risk spectrum in terms
> >>> of their history of repossessing dogs for both valid and invalid
> >>> reasons. These are not at all quality statements regarding the worth
> >>> of either the dogs or the training programs.  I am simply speaking to
> >>> the issue of likelihood of a dog being removed from the handler's
> >>> care by the school.
> >>> But, it is very important that you first figure out how much of a
> >>> risk you face for an ownership policy to become troublesome for you
> >>> as a handler. See below:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I would suggest that you prioritize or not, the aspect of the
> >>> ownership
> >>>
> >>> policy in your decision making process based on how great of a risk
> >>> you
> >>>
> >>> face for potentially upsetting your school. Now, I am not talking
> >>> about
> >>>
> >>> harming, neglecting, beating or otherwise misusing or mistreating the
> >>> dog, as A. you would not do that, and B. those would be reasonable
> >>> grounds for your dog to be taken away. What I am talking about are
> >>> the factors that often cause schools to take punitive action. Here is
> >>> a list that is by no means exhaustive. See how many you check off,
> >>> and then decide based upon that how important an ownership policy is
> >>> for you in your personal situations. Each item has a number after it.
> >>> Add up your points at the end and calculate your score, then look at
> >>> the rough idea
> >>>
> >>> scoring guide. In each group of three, please only select one option,
> >>> or if you don't ever fit any of those categories, then put down a
> >>> zero. I will give you my score at the end. These are only examples
> >>> and not at all value judgements about you or any other lister. They
> >>> are guidelines
> >>>
> >>> based on what some schools have the potential to freak out about.
> >>> Every
> >>>
> >>> school is different, every trainer or administrator is different, and
> >>> schools can change over time improving or declining, so, keep that in
> >>> mind.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> A.
> >>>
> >>> You intend to feed your dog a raw diet, either the BARF method or the
> >>> prey model diet, 5,
> >>>
> >>> You intend to feed your dog a home cooked diet composed of cooked
> >>> meat,
> >>>
> >>> eggs, grains and or vegetables and vitamin supplements, 3,
> >>>
> >>> You intend to switch your dog off of the school's brand to an
> >>> organic, human grade or grain free dry dog food, 1,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> B.
> >>>
> >>> You intend to cross train your dog to perform tasks to mitigate a
> >>> secondary disability that you might have such as adding medical alert
> >>> tasks, psychiatric service, etc, 5,
> >>>
> >>> You intend to add extensive additional training to enhance your guide
> >>> dog's work, clicker training, target training, specialized find
> >>> commands, running with your dog, retrieval tasks, etc, 3,
> >>>
> >>> You intend to make some minor modifications to your dog's command
> >>> repertoire, such as adding a command to turn about 180 degrees, to
> >>> find
> >>>
> >>> and distinguish between words such as elevator, stairs and escalator,
> >>> some mild hand targeting to aid in off-leash recall, etc, 1,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> C.
> >>>
> >>> You intend to engage in high intensity dog sports with your dog such
> >>> as
> >>>
> >>> skijuring, agility trials, tracking or hunting or water rescue
> >>> trials, etc, 5,
> >>>
> >>> You intend to engage in some moderate intensity dog sports with your
> >>> guide such as, fly ball, obedience trials, cross country skiing,
> >>> walking marathons or half marathons with your dog, 3,
> >>>
> >>> You intend to engage in mild sports with your dog, hiking,
> >>> participation in walks such as 5Ks and 10ks, 1,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> D.
> >>>
> >>> You intend to do tyders before getting any vaccines for your dog, to
> >>> use only essential oils for flee and tick preventative, to utilize
> >>> herbal supplements for your dog, or to utilize the services of a
> >>> veterinary acupuncturist, 5,
> >>>
> >>> You intend to use conventional flee and tick preventative in the warm
> >>> months and essential oils for control in the cold months, to use some
> >>> nutritional, but not herbal supplements, to use tyders for some
> >>> vaccines, to minimize the use of antibiotics in many situations, you
> >>> use the services of an accupressurist, but not an acupuncturist, 3,
> >>>
> >>> You intend to give all vaccines but to spread them out to separate
> >>> visits, you will give flee and tick preventative year round, but you
> >>> will separate it from the heart worm preventative by one week, you
> >>> use organic grooming products, you engage in canine massage,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> E.
> >>>
> >>> You order and use an alternative harness such as one sold by On the
> >>> Go or Paw Power Creations, switch from a chain collar to a pinch
> >>> collar or
> >>>
> >>> a simple buckle collar, you have your dog where a light weight back
> >>> pack to carry some of their own supplies, you dress your dog up in a
> >>> full on
> >>>
> >>> costume for Halloween, 5,
> >>>
> >>> You decline the booties the school issues and use Mushers' Secret
> >>> instead, you use the school's harness but add harness signs and
> >>> pouches, you switch from a chain collar to a toggle collar or a
> >>> martingale collar, you put t-shirts and other things on your dog to
> >>> help remote causes and fund raisers important to you, 3,
> >>>
> >>> You regularly put decorative bandanas on your dog, you use a designer
> >>> leash rather than the school's leash, you get a really flashy fun
> >>> collar tag, 1,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> F.
> >>>
> >>> You regularly participate in marches, protests, march in gay pride
> >>> parades or other potentially controversial demonstrations, such as
> >>> right to life or right to choose, 5,
> >>>
> >>> You occasionally attend marches and protests, but they are not
> >>> frequent
> >>>
> >>> and are on the tame to moderate side, 3,
> >>>
> >>> You rarely, but sometimes attend controversial lectures, art
> >>> exhibitions, seminars, etc, 1,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> G.
> >>>
> >>> You have a spouse, adult parent or child living with you who has
> >>> intensive special needs which can sometimes include violent outbursts
> >>> or intense bouts of yelling or screaming, even if you have safe plans
> >>> and management stratagies to use, 5,
> >>>
> >>> You have a very hecktic life with one or more individuals in it who
> >>> can
> >>>
> >>> become disruptive or potentially upsetting to your dog, 3,
> >>>
> >>> You occasionally visit relatives or cliants who might have some of
> >>> the challenges described in the first two options, 1,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> H.
> >>>
> >>> You belong to a minority group that often faces descrimination,
> >>> LGBTQ, especially trans gendered individuals, individual with a green
> >>> card but
> >>>
> >>> not full citizenship in the United States, are a member of a
> >>> polyamerous relationship, etc, you belong to a highly controversial
> >>> organization or
> >>>
> >>> political party, in which you working your dog might be noticed in
> >>> public or in publicity, such as the KKK, the communist party, the
> >>> socialist party, the Nazi party, (yes, these extremely
> >>> contraversicial political parties are legally allowed to exist and
> >>> legally allowed to peacefully demonstrate, so I mention it, because
> >>> the blind are not universaly "good" "inocent" or "well behaved" as
> >>> many sighted steroytypes would portray us) 5,
> >>>
> >>> You are a member of a less controversial minority group, seventh day
> >>> Adventist, strict Islam, orthodox Judaism, racial minority, etc, you
> >>> belong to a group that your school is moderately likely to object to
> >>> your being publicly engaged with while working your dog, PETA, Green
> >>> Peace, the Tea Party, etc, , the occupy movement, 3,
> >>>
> >>> You belong to some organizations which your school might object to
> >>> your
> >>>
> >>> appearing in the literature or promotional materials with your dog,
> >>> such as, NFB, ACB, La Leche League, Gay Strait Alliance, Black Lives
> >>> Matter,
> >>>
> >>> etc, 1,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I.
> >>>
> >>> You evaluate your schools advice, conduct research, and often make
> >>> decisions that contradict the advice given in lectures, such as
> >>> opting to give squeak toys, with close supervision, you will not give
> >>> raw hide, but you think that elk antlers are acceptable, you wish to
> >>> use another heart worm preventative than what the school gives you,
> >>> you ignore advice not to play tug with your dog, never to take them
> >>> to a dog park,
> >>>
> >>> never ever to give your dog people food, etc, and if your school
> >>> challenged you, you would counter, respectfully, with research that
> >>> supports your choice and expect to be able to have a reasonable and
> >>> civil debate about the issue, and would most likely continue with
> >>> your practice if you truly felt that you were in the right, 5,
> >>>
> >>> You occasionally do something different from what your school told
> >>> you to do, but it is not all across the board and if your school
> >>> asked you to stop, yew would be willing to do so, but you would
> >>> expect to be heard out as to your reasoning and not to be penalized,
> >>> 3,
> >>>
> >>> You rarely do things at odds with your schools advice, but you do not
> >>> follow their guide lines to the letter and if asked to comply you
> >>> would
> >>>
> >>> do so right away and with apologies to the school, 1,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> J.
> >>>
> >>> You take your dog to very stressful environments, thoughtfully,
> >>> carefully and knowledgeably, such as parades, amusement parks, Time
> >>> Square on New Years, brothels in places where this is legal, to watch
> >>> a
> >>>
> >>> space shuttle launch, fire works displays at a distance, or at the
> >>> event with ear protection for the dog, hiking in truly remote
> >>> wilderness areas, white water rafting, 5,
> >>>
> >>> You take your dog into situations such as dangerous inner city
> >>> neighborhoods, crowded festivals, to dog shows as a spectator, into
> >>> jails or psychiatric wards, rock concerts, strip clubs, adult book or
> >>> toy storeseaetc, 3,
> >>>
> >>> You take your dog to, cruise ships, musical theater performances with
> >>> very loud music, theater performances with fake violence, gun shots,
> >>> smoke and strobe light effects, bars, especially controversial bars
> >>> such as gay bars or biker bars, 1,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> There are ten groups, so your maximum score could be 50, your minimum
> >>> score could be 0, a low risk person might have a score of around 10
> >>> to 20, a very, very low risk would be a score of 0 to 10. A moderate
> >>> risk handler might have a score of 20 to 35 and a high risk handler
> >>> might have a score of 35 to 50. My score is 40. What puts me into
> >>> this category? Things like having a spouse with PTSAID who is never
> >>> violent but who can yell a lot and rarely engages in behaviors like
> >>> hitting a wall or slamming a door, using a harness made by On The Go,
> >>> not my school's harness, feeding a raw diet, being a woman who
> >>> unashamedly breastfeeds in public with my guide laying at my feet,
> >>> teaching extensive additional commands, although not cross training
> >>> my dog for other disabilities, walking 5ks with my dog and fully
> >>> intending to acclimatize her and I and try to walk a marathon or half
> >>> marathon with her, marching in protests,
> >>>
> >>> attending parades or a fireworks display from an increased distance,
> >>> and also with ear protection for the dog, and so on.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> For me personally, an ownership policy is one of the most important
> >>> issues. If you scored 50? Then not considering ownership would be
> >>> truly
> >>>
> >>> foolish, but that is a true extreme, and I highly doubt that you
> >>> would score a 50. If you score a 0, then rest assured that your risk
> >>> is virtually non-existent, and aside from any philosophical
> >>> objections you
> >>>
> >>> might have, the functional reality for you makes ownership a non-issue.
> >>>
> >>> Again, I highly doubt that you scored a 0. You can do this on your
> >>> own,
> >>>
> >>> think about your score, and certainly any other factors I may have
> >>> missed, then you can decide for you personally whether the ownership
> >>> is
> >>>
> >>> a thing or not, and either way, you must do what is right for you.
> >>> So, I'm not debating the ownership question. For me personally it is
> >>> supremely important, it might also wind up being a crucial point for
> >>> you, or it might be a virtual non-issue. However, you should not rule
> >>> it out as a potentially crucial factor until and unless you have
> >>> assessed your risk for encountering difficulties with your school
> >>> based on who you are, how you live, what you do, how you handle your
> >>> dog, what challenges you face, etc.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I hope twas helpful.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 5/19/2017 12:36 PM, Brenda via NAGDU wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hello List,
> >>>>
> >>>> this week my pet dog Sadie passed over the rainbow bridge.  She was
> >>> 15
> >>>> years old and we had a wonderful life together. She is playing with
> >>>> her cat sisters who have gone before her. I will miss her and am
> >>> still
> >>>> sad, but she is no longer suffering so I'm at peace.
> >>>>
> >>>> As my vision waned over the years, I became more and more interested
> >>>> in getting a guide dog, but sadie who was an APL rescue didn't like
> >>>> other dogs. I did get O&m training to maintain my independence and
> >>>> have been using my skills and now I am ready to apply for a guide.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have been surfing the guide dog school websites and reading posts
> >>>> from here and elsewhere about different guide dog schools and am now
> >>>> trying to sort things out.
> >>>>
> >>>> Several schools at the top of my list do not grant full ownership.
> >>>> This concerns me, but other than that I like the schools.  One
> >>>> school that does grant ownership is in California.  I live in Ohio
> >>>> and don't want to be on a plane for a long time.  that may be silly,
> >>>> but I
> >>> can't
> >>>> get over it.
> >>>>
> >>>> So'''I would appreciate Listers input/opinions/guidance/thoughts on
> >>> my
> >>>> situation.
> >>>>
> >>>> the school I really like is Guiding eyes for the Blind.  They do not
> >>>> grant ownership at all, but I have not heard/read  anything negative
> >>>> about them. I doubt they are in business to develop teams only to
> >>> take
> >>>> the dog away.
> >>>>
> >>>> My intent is not to debate ownership issues.  I want to learn
> >>> Listers'
> >>>> experiences with nonownership schools with the focus on GEB.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks for any input.
> >>>>
> >>>> Brenda
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>
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