[NAGDU] Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School Bashing contained within,

Star Gazer pickrellrebecca at gmail.com
Mon May 22 22:10:51 UTC 2017


				Lisa, can you explain? 
How are things handled differently?

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lisa via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 9:31 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Lisa <dreamymarmot93 at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School Bashing contained within, 

Hi Heather,


wow, thanks so much for sharing this.

I'm in Germany and theoretically, this debate about ownership is not important for me because over here things are handled very differently in the guide dog system but I still answered the questions. I got only a 20. I was a bit surprised, I had expected more. But these questions are so important to understand how much of an issue ownership policies can be for some people including myself.

I would feel seriously limited in handling my dog if I knew my school would react to things like teaching him additional tasks or taking him to this or that event negatively.


Lisa



Am 22.05.2017 um 13:56 schrieb margo Downey via NAGDU:
> I scored 41.
>
> Margo and Isis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie 
> Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 7:00 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Julie Johnson
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School 
> Bashing contained within,
>
> I love this tool!  Thanks so much for creating and sharing it!  I 
> score in the mid to upper 20's...it's early and I haven't finished my first
> cup of coffee so math is not my strong suit right now. *smile*   I'm
> also a long, long way from thinking about a new dog and whether or not 
> I'll attend a program for that dog.
>
> Anyway, I did want to add one thought to this excellent tool. Consider 
> how your life might change to include things that you do not currently 
> participate in.  I'm thinking in particular about sporting events, 
> marches, concerts, bars etc.  If you are a young person living at home 
> or just getting ready to go off to college, your life can look very 
> different than it does now in just a couple of years.  I live in a 
> very small town that simply does not have some of these things as an 
> option for me to participate in. I have no plans of moving, but life happens.
> Might I want to do some of these things in the future?  Perhaps, and I 
> do think I'd like to have the option of working my dog if I felt it 
> appropriate.
>
> Julie
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>
>
>
> On 5/22/2017 1:06 AM, Daryl via NAGDU wrote:
>> This is a very thorough assessment tool. Depending on how I choose to 
>> view it, my score would probably be somewhere between 26 and 30. I'm 
>> half asleep, so my math could be wrong. In any case, it does tell me 
>> the type of school I would need to attend and that ownership does 
>> need to be a consideration with a successor dog. :-) thank you for 
>> this very thorough tool. :-)
>>
>> On May 21, 2017 10:31:46 PM MDT, Heather Bird via NAGDU
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>      Hi, Brenda and list. Well, I want to talk about low and high 
>>> risks related to ownership policies. I am not going to bash any 
>>> school or to debate whether ownership is a deal breaker issue, 
>>> because for some people it is and for some it is not. What I want to 
>>> do is to give you a
>>>
>>> rough outline of a scale you can use to look at how the situation of 
>>> a theoretical handler might increase or decrease their risk for an 
>>> issue of repossession of a guide taking place. You need not feel 
>>> compelled to
>>>
>>> share your answers with the list, but it might be helpful to you or 
>>> to other listers.
>>>
>>>
>>> So, let's assume a few things and then consider them. A. You are a 
>>> perfect handler, who receives the perfect dog, from a school who is 
>>> always fair. In that case, ownership would matter only in the 
>>> theoretical realm of blindness philosophy, but logistically it 
>>> wouldn't
>>>
>>> make any difference to the team. However, no handler, dog, team or 
>>> school is perfect. Next scenario. B. You are a great handler with a 
>>> dog
>>>
>> >from  a not very reasonable school. There is some risk, but not too
>>> much
>>> if the handler plays by the rules. C. You are not a very competent 
>>> or compliant handler, but your school is also not a very vigilant or 
>>> punitive school, and so, no issues related to repossession of the 
>>> dog are likely to arise. Finally, D. You are a substandard handler 
>>> from a very aware and parental school. You are almost certain to 
>>> encounter trouble. . As no school is perfect, every single school 
>>> will on occasion be unfair to a handler, just as at every school 
>>> there will be some handlers who screw up, that is life and the law of averages.
>>> I know of at least one handler from the following schools who has 
>>> shared with me that they have had a dog taken back, where, if they 
>>> are being truthful,
>>>
>>> I absolutely feel that the school was in the wrong, in whole or in
>>> part:
>>> GDB, GEB, Fidelco, GDD, GDF, UGDA (note, no longer exists) GDT. I 
>>> know of at least one case of a handler engaging in handling and 
>>> treatment of
>>>
>>> the dog that I do think should have warranted repossession of the 
>>> dog, again, if they were being truthful, in which the school did 
>>> nothing at the following schools: GEB, GDF, GDB, GDD, Eye Dog 
>>> Foundation, UGDA (no
>>>
>>> longer exists) and Freedom Guide Dogs. Out of all of the schools in 
>>> the
>>>
>>> country I would recommend the Seeing Eye as your absolute best bet 
>>> for avoiding the pitfalls that can come from a school's ownership
> policies.
>>> I would say that Freedom is also a fairly low risk. I would say that 
>>> Fidelco and GDB would be one of your highest risk schools and all of 
>>> the rest fall somewhere in the middle of the risk spectrum in terms 
>>> of their history of repossessing dogs for both valid and invalid 
>>> reasons. These are not at all quality statements regarding the worth 
>>> of either the dogs or the training programs.  I am simply speaking 
>>> to the issue of likelihood of a dog being removed from the handler's 
>>> care by the school.
>>> But, it is very important that you first figure out how much of a 
>>> risk you face for an ownership policy to become troublesome for you 
>>> as a handler. See below:
>>>
>>>
>>> I would suggest that you prioritize or not, the aspect of the 
>>> ownership
>>>
>>> policy in your decision making process based on how great of a risk 
>>> you
>>>
>>> face for potentially upsetting your school. Now, I am not talking 
>>> about
>>>
>>> harming, neglecting, beating or otherwise misusing or mistreating 
>>> the dog, as A. you would not do that, and B. those would be 
>>> reasonable grounds for your dog to be taken away. What I am talking 
>>> about are the factors that often cause schools to take punitive 
>>> action. Here is a list that is by no means exhaustive. See how many 
>>> you check off, and then decide based upon that how important an 
>>> ownership policy is for you in your personal situations. Each item has a number after it.
>>> Add up your points at the end and calculate your score, then look at 
>>> the rough idea
>>>
>>> scoring guide. In each group of three, please only select one 
>>> option, or if you don't ever fit any of those categories, then put 
>>> down a zero. I will give you my score at the end. These are only 
>>> examples and not at all value judgements about you or any other 
>>> lister. They are guidelines
>>>
>>> based on what some schools have the potential to freak out about.
>>> Every
>>>
>>> school is different, every trainer or administrator is different, 
>>> and schools can change over time improving or declining, so, keep 
>>> that in mind.
>>>
>>>
>>> A.
>>>
>>> You intend to feed your dog a raw diet, either the BARF method or 
>>> the prey model diet, 5,
>>>
>>> You intend to feed your dog a home cooked diet composed of cooked 
>>> meat,
>>>
>>> eggs, grains and or vegetables and vitamin supplements, 3,
>>>
>>> You intend to switch your dog off of the school's brand to an 
>>> organic, human grade or grain free dry dog food, 1,
>>>
>>>
>>> B.
>>>
>>> You intend to cross train your dog to perform tasks to mitigate a 
>>> secondary disability that you might have such as adding medical 
>>> alert tasks, psychiatric service, etc, 5,
>>>
>>> You intend to add extensive additional training to enhance your 
>>> guide dog's work, clicker training, target training, specialized 
>>> find commands, running with your dog, retrieval tasks, etc, 3,
>>>
>>> You intend to make some minor modifications to your dog's command 
>>> repertoire, such as adding a command to turn about 180 degrees, to 
>>> find
>>>
>>> and distinguish between words such as elevator, stairs and 
>>> escalator, some mild hand targeting to aid in off-leash recall, etc, 
>>> 1,
>>>
>>>
>>> C.
>>>
>>> You intend to engage in high intensity dog sports with your dog such 
>>> as
>>>
>>> skijuring, agility trials, tracking or hunting or water rescue 
>>> trials, etc, 5,
>>>
>>> You intend to engage in some moderate intensity dog sports with your 
>>> guide such as, fly ball, obedience trials, cross country skiing, 
>>> walking marathons or half marathons with your dog, 3,
>>>
>>> You intend to engage in mild sports with your dog, hiking, 
>>> participation in walks such as 5Ks and 10ks, 1,
>>>
>>>
>>> D.
>>>
>>> You intend to do tyders before getting any vaccines for your dog, to 
>>> use only essential oils for flee and tick preventative, to utilize 
>>> herbal supplements for your dog, or to utilize the services of a 
>>> veterinary acupuncturist, 5,
>>>
>>> You intend to use conventional flee and tick preventative in the 
>>> warm months and essential oils for control in the cold months, to 
>>> use some nutritional, but not herbal supplements, to use tyders for 
>>> some vaccines, to minimize the use of antibiotics in many 
>>> situations, you use the services of an accupressurist, but not an 
>>> acupuncturist, 3,
>>>
>>> You intend to give all vaccines but to spread them out to separate 
>>> visits, you will give flee and tick preventative year round, but you 
>>> will separate it from the heart worm preventative by one week, you 
>>> use organic grooming products, you engage in canine massage,
>>>
>>>
>>> E.
>>>
>>> You order and use an alternative harness such as one sold by On the 
>>> Go or Paw Power Creations, switch from a chain collar to a pinch 
>>> collar or
>>>
>>> a simple buckle collar, you have your dog where a light weight back 
>>> pack to carry some of their own supplies, you dress your dog up in a 
>>> full on
>>>
>>> costume for Halloween, 5,
>>>
>>> You decline the booties the school issues and use Mushers' Secret 
>>> instead, you use the school's harness but add harness signs and 
>>> pouches, you switch from a chain collar to a toggle collar or a 
>>> martingale collar, you put t-shirts and other things on your dog to 
>>> help remote causes and fund raisers important to you, 3,
>>>
>>> You regularly put decorative bandanas on your dog, you use a 
>>> designer leash rather than the school's leash, you get a really 
>>> flashy fun collar tag, 1,
>>>
>>>
>>> F.
>>>
>>> You regularly participate in marches, protests, march in gay pride 
>>> parades or other potentially controversial demonstrations, such as 
>>> right to life or right to choose, 5,
>>>
>>> You occasionally attend marches and protests, but they are not 
>>> frequent
>>>
>>> and are on the tame to moderate side, 3,
>>>
>>> You rarely, but sometimes attend controversial lectures, art 
>>> exhibitions, seminars, etc, 1,
>>>
>>>
>>> G.
>>>
>>> You have a spouse, adult parent or child living with you who has 
>>> intensive special needs which can sometimes include violent 
>>> outbursts or intense bouts of yelling or screaming, even if you have 
>>> safe plans and management stratagies to use, 5,
>>>
>>> You have a very hecktic life with one or more individuals in it who 
>>> can
>>>
>>> become disruptive or potentially upsetting to your dog, 3,
>>>
>>> You occasionally visit relatives or cliants who might have some of 
>>> the challenges described in the first two options, 1,
>>>
>>>
>>> H.
>>>
>>> You belong to a minority group that often faces descrimination, 
>>> LGBTQ, especially trans gendered individuals, individual with a 
>>> green card but
>>>
>>> not full citizenship in the United States, are a member of a 
>>> polyamerous relationship, etc, you belong to a highly controversial 
>>> organization or
>>>
>>> political party, in which you working your dog might be noticed in 
>>> public or in publicity, such as the KKK, the communist party, the 
>>> socialist party, the Nazi party, (yes, these extremely 
>>> contraversicial political parties are legally allowed to exist and 
>>> legally allowed to peacefully demonstrate, so I mention it, because 
>>> the blind are not universaly "good" "inocent" or "well behaved" as 
>>> many sighted steroytypes would portray us) 5,
>>>
>>> You are a member of a less controversial minority group, seventh day 
>>> Adventist, strict Islam, orthodox Judaism, racial minority, etc, you 
>>> belong to a group that your school is moderately likely to object to 
>>> your being publicly engaged with while working your dog, PETA, Green 
>>> Peace, the Tea Party, etc, , the occupy movement, 3,
>>>
>>> You belong to some organizations which your school might object to 
>>> your
>>>
>>> appearing in the literature or promotional materials with your dog, 
>>> such as, NFB, ACB, La Leche League, Gay Strait Alliance, Black Lives 
>>> Matter,
>>>
>>> etc, 1,
>>>
>>>
>>> I.
>>>
>>> You evaluate your schools advice, conduct research, and often make 
>>> decisions that contradict the advice given in lectures, such as 
>>> opting to give squeak toys, with close supervision, you will not 
>>> give raw hide, but you think that elk antlers are acceptable, you 
>>> wish to use another heart worm preventative than what the school 
>>> gives you, you ignore advice not to play tug with your dog, never to 
>>> take them to a dog park,
>>>
>>> never ever to give your dog people food, etc, and if your school 
>>> challenged you, you would counter, respectfully, with research that 
>>> supports your choice and expect to be able to have a reasonable and 
>>> civil debate about the issue, and would most likely continue with 
>>> your practice if you truly felt that you were in the right, 5,
>>>
>>> You occasionally do something different from what your school told 
>>> you to do, but it is not all across the board and if your school 
>>> asked you to stop, yew would be willing to do so, but you would 
>>> expect to be heard out as to your reasoning and not to be penalized, 
>>> 3,
>>>
>>> You rarely do things at odds with your schools advice, but you do 
>>> not follow their guide lines to the letter and if asked to comply 
>>> you would
>>>
>>> do so right away and with apologies to the school, 1,
>>>
>>>
>>> J.
>>>
>>> You take your dog to very stressful environments, thoughtfully, 
>>> carefully and knowledgeably, such as parades, amusement parks, Time 
>>> Square on New Years, brothels in places where this is legal, to 
>>> watch a
>>>
>>> space shuttle launch, fire works displays at a distance, or at the 
>>> event with ear protection for the dog, hiking in truly remote 
>>> wilderness areas, white water rafting, 5,
>>>
>>> You take your dog into situations such as dangerous inner city 
>>> neighborhoods, crowded festivals, to dog shows as a spectator, into 
>>> jails or psychiatric wards, rock concerts, strip clubs, adult book 
>>> or toy stores,etc, 3,
>>>
>>> You take your dog to, cruise ships, musical theater performances 
>>> with very loud music, theater performances with fake violence, gun 
>>> shots, smoke and strobe light effects, bars, especially 
>>> controversial bars such as gay bars or biker bars, 1,
>>>
>>>
>>> There are ten groups, so your maximum score could be 50, your 
>>> minimum score could be 0, a low risk person might have a score of 
>>> around 10 to 20, a very, very low risk would be a score of 0 to 10. 
>>> A moderate risk handler might have a score of 20 to 35 and a high 
>>> risk handler might have a score of 35 to 50. My score is 40. What 
>>> puts me into this category? Things like having a spouse with PTSD 
>>> who is never violent but who can yell a lot and rarely engages in 
>>> behaviors like hitting a wall or slamming a door, using a harness 
>>> made by On The Go, not my school's harness, feeding a raw diet, 
>>> being a woman who unashamedly breastfeeds in public with my guide 
>>> laying at my feet, teaching extensive additional commands, although 
>>> not cross training my dog for other disabilities, walking 5ks with 
>>> my dog and fully intending to acclimatize her and I and try to walk 
>>> a marathon or half marathon with her, marching in protests,
>>>
>>> attending parades or a fireworks display from an increased distance, 
>>> and also with ear protection for the dog, and so on.
>>>
>>>
>>> For me personally, an ownership policy is one of the most important 
>>> issues. If you scored 50? Then not considering ownership would be 
>>> truly
>>>
>>> foolish, but that is a true extreme, and I highly doubt that you 
>>> would score a 50. If you score a 0, then rest assured that your risk 
>>> is virtually non-existent, and aside from any philosophical 
>>> objections you
>>>
>>> might have, the functional reality for you makes ownership a non-issue.
>>>
>>> Again, I highly doubt that you scored a 0. You can do this on your 
>>> own,
>>>
>>> think about your score, and certainly any other factors I may have 
>>> missed, then you can decide for you personally whether the ownership 
>>> is
>>>
>>> a thing or not, and either way, you must do what is right for you.
>>> So, I'm not debating the ownership question. For me personally it is 
>>> supremely important, it might also wind up being a crucial point for 
>>> you, or it might be a virtual non-issue. However, you should not 
>>> rule it out as a potentially crucial factor until and unless you 
>>> have assessed your risk for encountering difficulties with your 
>>> school based on who you are, how you live, what you do, how you 
>>> handle your dog, what challenges you face, etc.
>>>
>>>
>>> I hope twas helpful.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 5/19/2017 12:36 PM, Brenda via NAGDU wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello List,
>>>>
>>>> this week my pet dog Sadie passed over the rainbow bridge.  She was
>>> 15
>>>> years old and we had a wonderful life together. She is playing with 
>>>> her cat sisters who have gone before her. I will miss her and am
>>> still
>>>> sad, but she is no longer suffering so I'm at peace.
>>>>
>>>> As my vision waned over the years, I became more and more 
>>>> interested in getting a guide dog, but sadie who was an APL rescue 
>>>> didn't like other dogs. I did get O&m training to maintain my 
>>>> independence and have been using my skills and now I am ready to apply for a guide.
>>>>
>>>> I have been surfing the guide dog school websites and reading posts 
>>>> from here and elsewhere about different guide dog schools and am 
>>>> now trying to sort things out.
>>>>
>>>> Several schools at the top of my list do not grant full ownership.
>>>> This concerns me, but other than that I like the schools.  One 
>>>> school that does grant ownership is in California.  I live in Ohio 
>>>> and don't want to be on a plane for a long time.  that may be 
>>>> silly, but I
>>> can't
>>>> get over it.
>>>>
>>>> So...I would appreciate Listers input/opinions/guidance/thoughts on
>>> my
>>>> situation.
>>>>
>>>> the school I really like is Guiding eyes for the Blind.  They do 
>>>> not grant ownership at all, but I have not heard/read  anything 
>>>> negative about them. I doubt they are in business to develop teams 
>>>> only to
>>> take
>>>> the dog away.
>>>>
>>>> My intent is not to debate ownership issues.  I want to learn
>>> Listers'
>>>> experiences with nonownership schools with the focus on GEB.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for any input.
>>>>
>>>> Brenda
>>>>
>>>>
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