[NAGDU] finding things

Dan Weiner dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net
Wed Nov 1 22:57:37 UTC 2017 

very well said, Sandra. I've had four dogs so far, Parker being the 
fourth One.  my Evan Dog, dog numero dos,  was incredible about finding 
things but for some reason it didn't start off that way, I think at some 
point a light bulb went off in his head after we did things enough and 
he said "wait, this is what he wants!". others have been mediocre or not 
able to find things at all, my first dog would pattern very well but as 
far as finding things with a word associated good luck, then there was 
Evan, then Carter who was a bit of a nut but lovable, then Parker who is 
somewhere in between, Evan was the standard-bearer for all of them and a 
tough act to follow, so the thing is that dogs, just like us, have their 
strengths and weaknesses, still I found that really hauling butt and 
setting up situations and working on it could help but that's frankly 
not always easy, after all you need them to find things that maybe you 
can't find yourself, that is to say, you need them to generalize.

My Parker wishes your Eva a lovely evening--smile


what I've been wondering all these years...the schools will claim that 
the dogs are in quotes "exposed " to these commands or ideas, with some 
being very assertive about how well their dogs find, or some grads 
assuring you that the dogs find dozens of things, a grad from 
Southeastern i know is very , hmmm how can I put it, proud about this skill.

but as I've said with all my dogs even those who had natural talent I 
had to work at it...so I'm wondering severl things, for example, how 
solid is a find command when the dogs come out of school, is it that, 1. 
it should have been worked on more or 2. it's just the nature of the 
beast and we need to work on it or 3. both or four, neither or none of 
the above--lol




Dan



On 11/1/2017 5:32 PM, S L Johnson via NAGDU wrote:
> Dan:
>
> Interesting question.  I have experienced both things dogs who could find
> anything and dogs who were not good at it.  My previous guide Tara, a golden
> from GDF, was not good at find.  She would stop too far away from the object
> for me to know if she had found it or not.  It may have been a lack of
> confidence or her being afraid of making a mistake.  It took me a very long
> time and a lot of work before she would locate the simplest things.  She
> never could transfer this to a new location.  My current dog is from Pilot
> who does not teach find and Eva is fantastic at it.  I show her something
> once, attach a word command to it with lots of praise and she will remember
> how to find it even in unfamiliar locations.  The empty seat was a abit more
> of a challenge because Eva loves people and thinks they are there to pay
> attention to her.  Now all I have to do is say no empty seat and she will
> find one for me.  I do not know what goes on in their little heads but some
> dogs thrive on the challenge of find and other dogs just never get it all
> that well.  I have found the same with the follow command.  Eva was not
> taught this at Pilot but the minute I got off the bus with her I pointed to
> my sister and told Eva to follow her.  Eva followed her to her car and has
> continued to follow a person when I ask her to do this.  I guess it does
> really depend on the dog, not the school who trained it.
>
> Sandra and Eva
> SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan Weiner via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 12:55 PM
> To: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
> Cc: Dan Weiner
> Subject: [NAGDU] finding things
>
> just a point of discussion, I really think these skills finding chairs,
> elevators, buttons all of those are something my dogs have learned
>
>
> Â but to get them to be consistent I've had o really hall butt and
> practice even if they were exposed to it at guide dog school, what have
> other people found?
>
> Warmest regards,
>
> Dan and Parker the chair-finder--smileOn 11/1/2017 12:16 PM, Jean
> Menzies via NAGDU wrote:
>> Andy, thanks for your detailed response. It really helps in comparing how
>> the dogs might work, not taking into account personality of course. In 34
>> years of having guide dogs, I have gone through 3 different programs. I
>> change based on what taught skills I think will best suit my lifestyle at
>> a given point. All the programs have been excellent, and my choice to
>> change is not based on anything except examining the skills the dogs are
>> taught and thinking about what I need. Thanks for sharing.
>>
>> Jean and Bode
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Andy Borka via NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 7:12 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Andy Borka
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] choosing a school
>>
>> Hi Jean,
>>
>> I recently graduated from Seeing Eye. In fact, Alec and I came home in
>> August of this year. We will attempt to answer your questions as much as
>> possible.
>>
>> Food rewards used or not used
>> During training, food rewards are usually forbidden. The dogs are taught
>> to drive from your love and praises after each successful task. Only when
>> you get home might a trainer recommend food rewards along with clicker
>> training. This is done after arriving home because your dog will not have
>> any concept of where he/she is at the time. After building their
>> confidence with a route, phase out the treats, then the clicker
>> Skill sets â?"Is Find the ... taught? If so, what objects or items are the
>> dogs taught to find initially?
>> They are taught inside/outside and doors. Aside from this, your dog is
>> taught to generalize. An example is a table. If you normally sit at a
>> table in a lounge, then ask your dog to find a table, he might take you to
>> the one you would normally sit at, but he will take you to a table. After
>> sitting in a specific spot for a few days, he will start taking you
>> directly to that spot. Seeing Eye dogs are heavily patterned for your
>> specific needs. Therefore, most of the patterning and generalization is
>> done during class. Right now, Alec can find inside, outside, the door,
>> home, park, the bus, the wall (at a specific street corner), the service
>> desk at Walmart, the checkout register at Walgreens, the down ramp at
>> certain street corners (offset crossings), things I drop on the ground (my
>> keys on one occasion), steps (both up and down), cars I normally ride in,
>> specific people he knows fairly well, and return points during a route.
>> Most of these he learned during class or after getting home.
>> Traffic work â?" exposure to quiet cars
>> Seeing Eye has a quiet car they use during traning and traffic checks.
>> During class, staff members will drive around in different types of
>> vehicles. When students attempt to cross the street, they will give you
>> and your dog a traffic check. A traffic check is a situation where the
>> driver poses a potential danger to you or your dog. An example is pulling
>> out directly in front of you during a crossing. One of these cars is a
>> quiet car. Often, they request the general public give you traffic checks
>> at random. I remember a time where we ended up boxed in between four cars
>> during a crossing. The unfortunate complexity of this situation is the
>> cars that boxed us in were still moving. Alec expertly guided me out of
>> the problem and across the street. Traffic is an important topic. Roughly
>> 4 hours of lectures are dedicated to handling traffic.
>>
>> Application process: Number of references, home video
>> The application process is not complicated. Go to seeingeye.org, click
>> admissions, then apply, then apply online. You create a username/password.
>> When you arrive at the application, you have to fill out sections related
>> to contact info, vision, general health, mobility, references, class date
>> preferences, etc. You have to provide three references. The cost for a dog
>> is $150 paid to the school whenever you can afford to do so. When the
>> initial application is approved, they send you medical forms to have your
>> doctor fill out and send back. They will send a trainer out to evaluate
>> your current mobility skills. Since you have a dog, I donâ?Tt know how
>> they would evaluate mobility skills. In the same visit, the trainer would
>> give you a juno walk. If everything is good to go, you will receive a
>> class date. At that time, they would walk you through the legal paperwork
>> and travel arrangements.
>>
>> These questions have been answered based on my own experience, and what
>> trainers have told me during class.
>>
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>
>> From: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 2:10 PM
>> To: NAGDU
>> Cc: Jean Menzies
>> Subject: [NAGDU] choosing a school
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Without going into the details now, I am looking at dog retirement, and
>> getting applications started for dog  number 7. Even if I end up delaying
>> exceptance, the paperwork will be good for two years, and there are
>> reasons to get going on it now.
>>
>>
>>
>> My current dog is from Leader. He is wonderful, and I really like the
>> skill sets that LD puts on their dogs. But in deciding if I stay or change
>> schools, I want some information on the Seing Eye as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> For anyone who has been to either school recently, or for those who have
>> been to both, I would like your thoughts on the following points:
>>
>>
>>
>> Food rewards used or not used
>>
>>
>>
>> If food rewards are used, are they phased out or maintained
>>
>>
>>
>> Skill sets â?"
>>
>> Is Find the ... taught? If so, what objects or items are the dogs taught
>> to find initially? E.g., empty chairs/benches, stairs up/down, pushbutton
>> poles, doors, inside/outside, etc.?
>>
>>
>>
>> Traffic work â?" exposure to quiet cars
>>
>>
>>
>> Application process: Number of references, home video
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm interested in comparing the skill sets and working styles of the dogs,
>> so please, no info on meals, rooms, etc. That's not important to me. Any
>> info anyone can provide on current training from the two programs would be
>> appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jean
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