[NAGDU] finding things

Sat Nov 4 18:09:06 UTC 2017

*Hi Jean,
All my Leader pups were taught "Find" and "find the" before I was 
matched with them. Customizing the "Find" and "find the" has been quite 
easy.  When I became an Owner Trainer the pups were taught "find" and 
"find the" from the get-go.
     As for being good "avoiders" they have all been stellar. A funny 
story from when I was on class with LD Sequoia, my very first Leader 
Dog. It was the first day that we were going to be doing obstacles and 
our trainer, Jim Gardener, had explained to me how it was supposed to 
go. Dog works up to said obstacle and stops, I explore with hands/feet 
to try to determine information and based on that information gained 
give the pup a "Hup left", or "Hup right". Well, no one told Sequoia the 
script. We approached the first obstacle and instead of stopping he just 
took us around it. Now having had "FOLLOW YOUR DOG" pounded into my head 
by Guide Dog owning friends since I'd met my first Guide Dog in 1987, I 
did just that and followed my dog.  Jim was cracking up when he caught 
up with us. It appears that Sequoia had decided to skip directly to 
Advanced lever obstacle avoidance on his own.  Nowadays, when it comes 
to obstacles, I use "Find the way" and let Harley use his best 
judgement. He's the one that can see after all. He'll stop for some 
things, others we zip around them.

Your Mileage May Vary

Wayne And Harley D

*On 11/1/2017 12:08 PM, Jean Menzies via NAGDU wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> Some of my dogs over the years wouldn't find much of anything. lol. 
> Some, especially in the early days of my dog experiences, were great 
> obstacle avoiders, but lousy finders. Perhaps find wasn't taught as a 
> skill and they never quite understood it, or perhaps I didn't know how 
> to teach it back then. Who knows. But since then, I have been through 
> several programs that actively teach find, and I have found that those 
> dogs get it. They are good at avoidance, but also good at locating. 
> When they know the difference, it is much easier to teach new objects 
> for finding. JMO. I think it is also a bit dog dependent. Some might 
> just be better at that skill.
>
> Personally, I do think that if they are taught a specific concept of 
> actually finding things in training, they are much better at finding, 
> and then we can build on that. I have also found that my dogs with 
> higher drive have been better at it than the calmer softer types. But 
> that is a big generalization, and is just what I have experienced so far.
>
> Jean and Bode
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Dan Weiner via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:55 AM
> To: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
> Cc: Dan Weiner
> Subject: [NAGDU] finding things
>
> just a point of discussion, I really think these skills finding chairs,
> elevators, buttons all of those are something my dogs have learned
>
>
>  but to get them to be consistent I've had o really hall butt and
> practice even if they were exposed to it at guide dog school, what have
> other people found?
>
> Warmest regards,
>
> Dan and Parker the chair-finder--smileOn 11/1/2017 12:16 PM, Jean
> Menzies via NAGDU wrote:
>> Andy, thanks for your detailed response. It really helps in comparing 
>> how the dogs might work, not taking into account personality of 
>> course. In 34 years of having guide dogs, I have gone through 3 
>> different programs. I change based on what taught skills I think will 
>> best suit my lifestyle at a given point. All the programs have been 
>> excellent, and my choice to change is not based on anything except 
>> examining the skills the dogs are taught and thinking about what I 
>> need. Thanks for sharing.
>>
>> Jean and Bode
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Andy Borka via NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 7:12 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Andy Borka
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] choosing a school
>>
>> Hi Jean,
>>
>> I recently graduated from Seeing Eye. In fact, Alec and I came home 
>> in August of this year. We will attempt to answer your questions as 
>> much as possible.
>>
>> Food rewards used or not used
>> During training, food rewards are usually forbidden. The dogs are 
>> taught to drive from your love and praises after each successful 
>> task. Only when you get home might a trainer recommend food rewards 
>> along with clicker training. This is done after arriving home because 
>> your dog will not have any concept of where he/she is at the time. 
>> After building their confidence with a route, phase out the treats, 
>> then the clicker
>> Skill sets –Is Find the ... taught? If so, what objects or items are 
>> the dogs taught to find initially?
>> They are taught inside/outside and doors. Aside from this, your dog 
>> is taught to generalize. An example is a table. If you normally sit 
>> at a table in a lounge, then ask your dog to find a table, he might 
>> take you to the one you would normally sit at, but he will take you 
>> to a table. After sitting in a specific spot for a few days, he will 
>> start taking you directly to that spot. Seeing Eye dogs are heavily 
>> patterned for your specific needs. Therefore, most of the patterning 
>> and generalization is done during class. Right now, Alec can find 
>> inside, outside, the door, home, park, the bus, the wall (at a 
>> specific street corner), the service desk at Walmart, the checkout 
>> register at Walgreens, the down ramp at certain street corners 
>> (offset crossings), things I drop on the ground (my keys on one 
>> occasion), steps (both up and down), cars I normally ride in, 
>> specific people he knows fairly well, and return points during a 
>> route. Most of these he learned during class or after getting home.
>> Traffic work – exposure to quiet cars
>> Seeing Eye has a quiet car they use during traning and traffic 
>> checks. During class, staff members will drive around in different 
>> types of vehicles. When students attempt to cross the street, they 
>> will give you and your dog a traffic check. A traffic check is a 
>> situation where the driver poses a potential danger to you or your 
>> dog. An example is pulling out directly in front of you during a 
>> crossing. One of these cars is a quiet car. Often, they request the 
>> general public give you traffic checks at random. I remember a time 
>> where we ended up boxed in between four cars during a crossing. The 
>> unfortunate complexity of this situation is the cars that boxed us in 
>> were still moving. Alec expertly guided me out of the problem and 
>> across the street. Traffic is an important topic. Roughly 4 hours of 
>> lectures are dedicated to handling traffic.
>>
>> Application process: Number of references, home video
>> The application process is not complicated. Go to seeingeye.org, 
>> click admissions, then apply, then apply online. You create a 
>> username/password. When you arrive at the application, you have to 
>> fill out sections related to contact info, vision, general health, 
>> mobility, references, class date preferences, etc. You have to 
>> provide three references. The cost for a dog is $150 paid to the 
>> school whenever you can afford to do so. When the initial application 
>> is approved, they send you medical forms to have your doctor fill out 
>> and send back. They will send a trainer out to evaluate your current 
>> mobility skills. Since you have a dog, I don’t know how they would 
>> evaluate mobility skills. In the same visit, the trainer would give 
>> you a juno walk. If everything is good to go, you will receive a 
>> class date. At that time, they would walk you through the legal 
>> paperwork and travel arrangements.
>>
>> These questions have been answered based on my own experience, and 
>> what trainers have told me during class.
>>
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>
>> From: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 2:10 PM
>> To: NAGDU
>> Cc: Jean Menzies
>> Subject: [NAGDU] choosing a school
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Without going into the details now, I am looking at dog retirement, 
>> and getting applications started for dog  number 7. Even if I end up 
>> delaying exceptance, the paperwork will be good for two years, and 
>> there are reasons to get going on it now.
>>
>>
>>
>> My current dog is from Leader. He is wonderful, and I really like the 
>> skill sets that LD puts on their dogs. But in deciding if I stay or 
>> change schools, I want some information on the Seing Eye as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> For anyone who has been to either school recently, or for those who 
>> have been to both, I would like your thoughts on the following points:
>>
>>
>>
>> Food rewards used or not used
>>
>>
>>
>> If food rewards are used, are they phased out or maintained
>>
>>
>>
>> Skill sets –
>>
>> Is Find the ... taught? If so, what objects or items are the dogs 
>> taught to find initially? E.g., empty chairs/benches, stairs up/down, 
>> pushbutton poles, doors, inside/outside, etc.?
>>
>>
>>
>> Traffic work – exposure to quiet cars
>>
>>
>>
>> Application process: Number of references, home video
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm interested in comparing the skill sets and working styles of the 
>> dogs, so please, no info on meals, rooms, etc. That's not important 
>> to me. Any info anyone can provide on current training from the two 
>> programs would be appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jean
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