[NAGDU] finding things

Tami Jarvis tami at poodlemutt.com
Sun Nov 5 16:30:45 UTC 2017


Sandra,

I've been ponderting the influence of softness vs. hardness when it 
comes to find, too. I only have my 2 dogs to use as reference points, 
but the easy going, eager-to-please boy is as good at find as my retired 
snot monster was. He can even parse the command, "Find the, um, er... 
uh..." and get me to the right new place over a complicated sort of 
empty space with weird footing. All while I was still trying to figure 
out what to call what I was looking for. The door? The store? The, er... 
/lol/

The only other dog I have to compare to is our household mutt, who has 
no job, but has learned to find and point things out to me around the 
house. She doesn't learn instantly like the poodles do, but she has 
learned over time even though I almost never get around to giving her 
the kind of training she needs to really get something. She needs the 
repetition and all the steps you read about in training books, and I'm 
too used to just showing a dog some new thing it would be cool to do and 
walking off knowing they're trained to do that now. /lol/ Observing how 
she seems to process little tasks as she learns gradually in spite of me 
is interesting, since it's also totally different. She's not so much 
food-motivated as food-obsessed, so she's more interested in the treat 
than in performing the task. I get really good results with her when I 
use treats, but I have to pay attention and do things differently. The 
poodles appreciate treats as a token of achievement, but doing something 
new and cool to impress me seems to be what they're really all about. 
This is good in many respects, except that they have endless energy and 
creativity, while I do not. Some of things either of them have come up 
with while I was resting up between training sessions have been, well... 
Impressively naughty. /lol/

Tami

On 11/04/2017 03:41 PM, S L Johnson via NAGDU wrote:
> Jean:
> 
> The interesting thing is that from my experience I have had both assertive
> dogs and soft gentle dogs be very good at find.  a couple of my most
> stubborn hard to handle dogs were good at find but so were my soft gentle
> dogs too.  One excellent example is Eva who is classified as a very soft
> gentle dog but is confident and sure of herself when working.  I think no
> matter what school you get your dog from it is a matter of luck as to how
> good that dog will be with the find command and other aspects of guide work.
> These wonderful dogs are great but they are not perfect and all have
> different strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> Sandra and Eva
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2017 4:50 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Jean Menzies
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] finding things
> 
> Hi Sandra,
> 
> I have to agree with you. My best finders have been the more confident ones,
> and the gentle quieter ones not so much. The problem as I see it is that it
> is getting harder and harder to get a really confident dog, since schools
> are going for the quieter softer dogs more and more. I know some will
> disagree, but that's how my 6 dogs so far have been.
> 
> Jean and Bode
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: S L Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2017 1:42 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: S L Johnson
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] finding things
> 
> Wayne:
> 
> I love using "find the way".  It covers a lot of situations from obstacles
> to crowded areas.  Eva is excellent when I tell her to "find the way".  She
> will pause, look around, then move out confidently to get us out of all
> kinds of situations.  I think the more confident your dog is the better they
> will be with the concept of find.  That is just my opinion drawn from my 42
> years of experience working with guide dogs,  some from schools who taught
> find and some whom I have taught find myself after graduation.
> 
> Sandra and Eva
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wayne & Harley via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2017 2:09 PM
> To: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
> Cc: Wayne & Harley
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] finding things
> 
> *Hi Jean,
> All my Leader pups were taught "Find" and "find the" before I was
> matched with them. Customizing the "Find" and "find the" has been quite
> easy.  When I became an Owner Trainer the pups were taught "find" and
> "find the" from the get-go.
> Â Â Â  As for being good "avoiders" they have all been stellar. A funny
> story from when I was on class with LD Sequoia, my very first Leader
> Dog. It was the first day that we were going to be doing obstacles and
> our trainer, Jim Gardener, had explained to me how it was supposed to
> go. Dog works up to said obstacle and stops, I explore with hands/feet
> to try to determine information and based on that information gained
> give the pup a "Hup left", or "Hup right". Well, no one told Sequoia the
> script. We approached the first obstacle and instead of stopping he just
> took us around it. Now having had "FOLLOW YOUR DOG" pounded into my head
> by Guide Dog owning friends since I'd met my first Guide Dog in 1987, I
> did just that and followed my dog.  Jim was cracking up when he caught
> up with us. It appears that Sequoia had decided to skip directly to
> Advanced lever obstacle avoidance on his own.  Nowadays, when it comes
> to obstacles, I use "Find the way" and let Harley use his best
> judgement. He's the one that can see after all. He'll stop for some
> things, others we zip around them.
> 
> Your Mileage May Vary
> 
> Wayne And Harley D
> 
> *On 11/1/2017 12:08 PM, Jean Menzies via NAGDU wrote:
>> Hi Dan,
>>
>> Some of my dogs over the years wouldn't find much of anything. lol. Some,
>> especially in the early days of my dog experiences, were great obstacle
>> avoiders, but lousy finders. Perhaps find wasn't taught as a skill and
>> they never quite understood it, or perhaps I didn't know how to teach it
>> back then. Who knows. But since then, I have been through several programs
>> that actively teach find, and I have found that those dogs get it. They
>> are good at avoidance, but also good at locating. When they know the
>> difference, it is much easier to teach new objects for finding. JMO. I
>> think it is also a bit dog dependent. Some might just be better at that
>> skill.
>>
>> Personally, I do think that if they are taught a specific concept of
>> actually finding things in training, they are much better at finding, and
>> then we can build on that. I have also found that my dogs with higher
>> drive have been better at it than the calmer softer types. But that is a
>> big generalization, and is just what I have experienced so far.
>>
>> Jean and Bode
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Dan Weiner via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:55 AM
>> To: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
>> Cc: Dan Weiner
>> Subject: [NAGDU] finding things
>>
>> just a point of discussion, I really think these skills finding chairs,
>> elevators, buttons all of those are something my dogs have learned
>>
>>
>> Â but to get them to be consistent I've had o really hall butt and
>> practice even if they were exposed to it at guide dog school, what have
>> other people found?
>>
>> Warmest regards,
>>
>> Dan and Parker the chair-finder--smileOn 11/1/2017 12:16 PM, Jean
>> Menzies via NAGDU wrote:
>>> Andy, thanks for your detailed response. It really helps in comparing how
>>> the dogs might work, not taking into account personality of course. In 34
>>> years of having guide dogs, I have gone through 3 different programs. I
>>> change based on what taught skills I think will best suit my lifestyle at
>>> a given point. All the programs have been excellent, and my choice to
>>> change is not based on anything except examining the skills the dogs are
>>> taught and thinking about what I need. Thanks for sharing.
>>>
>>> Jean and Bode
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Andy Borka via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 7:12 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Cc: Andy Borka
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] choosing a school
>>>
>>> Hi Jean,
>>>
>>> I recently graduated from Seeing Eye. In fact, Alec and I came home in
>>> August of this year. We will attempt to answer your questions as much as
>>> possible.
>>>
>>> Food rewards used or not used
>>> During training, food rewards are usually forbidden. The dogs are taught
>>> to drive from your love and praises after each successful task. Only when
>>> you get home might a trainer recommend food rewards along with clicker
>>> training. This is done after arriving home because your dog will not have
>>> any concept of where he/she is at the time. After building their
>>> confidence with a route, phase out the treats, then the clicker
>>> Skill sets â?"Is Find the ... taught? If so, what objects or items are
>>> the dogs taught to find initially?
>>> They are taught inside/outside and doors. Aside from this, your dog is
>>> taught to generalize. An example is a table. If you normally sit at a
>>> table in a lounge, then ask your dog to find a table, he might take you
>>> to the one you would normally sit at, but he will take you to a table.
>>> After sitting in a specific spot for a few days, he will start taking you
>>> directly to that spot. Seeing Eye dogs are heavily patterned for your
>>> specific needs. Therefore, most of the patterning and generalization is
>>> done during class. Right now, Alec can find inside, outside, the door,
>>> home, park, the bus, the wall (at a specific street corner), the service
>>> desk at Walmart, the checkout register at Walgreens, the down ramp at
>>> certain street corners (offset crossings), things I drop on the ground
>>> (my keys on one occasion), steps (both up and down), cars I normally ride
>>> in, specific people he knows fairly well, and return points during a
>>> route. Most of these he learned during class or after getting home.
>>> Traffic work â?" exposure to quiet cars
>>> Seeing Eye has a quiet car they use during traning and traffic checks.
>>> During class, staff members will drive around in different types of
>>> vehicles. When students attempt to cross the street, they will give you
>>> and your dog a traffic check. A traffic check is a situation where the
>>> driver poses a potential danger to you or your dog. An example is pulling
>>> out directly in front of you during a crossing. One of these cars is a
>>> quiet car. Often, they request the general public give you traffic checks
>>> at random. I remember a time where we ended up boxed in between four cars
>>> during a crossing. The unfortunate complexity of this situation is the
>>> cars that boxed us in were still moving. Alec expertly guided me out of
>>> the problem and across the street. Traffic is an important topic. Roughly
>>> 4 hours of lectures are dedicated to handling traffic.
>>>
>>> Application process: Number of references, home video
>>> The application process is not complicated. Go to seeingeye.org, click
>>> admissions, then apply, then apply online. You create a
>>> username/password. When you arrive at the application, you have to fill
>>> out sections related to contact info, vision, general health, mobility,
>>> references, class date preferences, etc. You have to provide three
>>> references. The cost for a dog is $150 paid to the school whenever you
>>> can afford to do so. When the initial application is approved, they send
>>> you medical forms to have your doctor fill out and send back. They will
>>> send a trainer out to evaluate your current mobility skills. Since you
>>> have a dog, I donâ?Tt know how they would evaluate mobility skills. In
>>> the same visit, the trainer would give you a juno walk. If everything is
>>> good to go, you will receive a class date. At that time, they would walk
>>> you through the legal paperwork and travel arrangements.
>>>
>>> These questions have been answered based on my own experience, and what
>>> trainers have told me during class.
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>
>>> From: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 2:10 PM
>>> To: NAGDU
>>> Cc: Jean Menzies
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] choosing a school
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Without going into the details now, I am looking at dog retirement, and
>>> getting applications started for dog  number 7. Even if I end up
>>> delaying exceptance, the paperwork will be good for two years, and there
>>> are reasons to get going on it now.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My current dog is from Leader. He is wonderful, and I really like the
>>> skill sets that LD puts on their dogs. But in deciding if I stay or
>>> change schools, I want some information on the Seing Eye as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For anyone who has been to either school recently, or for those who have
>>> been to both, I would like your thoughts on the following points:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Food rewards used or not used
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If food rewards are used, are they phased out or maintained
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Skill sets â?"
>>>
>>> Is Find the ... taught? If so, what objects or items are the dogs taught
>>> to find initially? E.g., empty chairs/benches, stairs up/down, pushbutton
>>> poles, doors, inside/outside, etc.?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Traffic work â?" exposure to quiet cars
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Application process: Number of references, home video
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm interested in comparing the skill sets and working styles of the
>>> dogs, so please, no info on meals, rooms, etc. That's not important to
>>> me. Any info anyone can provide on current training from the two programs
>>> would be appreciated.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jean
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>>
>>
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