[NAGDU] finding things

Sun Nov 5 16:40:55 UTC 2017

Charlene,

Oh, sorry you need to retire your wonderful boy. Why don't they breed 
them to stay young forever?

The way you describe Irish sounds a lot like Loki. I was used to Mitzi 
who is a rebel wildcat. Intelligent disobedience is just what she does. 
It worked out well, since she had to teach me how to be a decent handler 
wonce I had trained her to guide. Then I got Loki pup and spent a lot of 
time wondering if he would tell me what to do with myself when he needed 
to. Yup. He can and will. Under all that mellow sweet love is a core of 
steel. I think Mitzi taught me to have my way with a poodle without 
engaging that stubborness in flat out rebellion, though Loki can go 
there, too. I think I find his style of guiding a lot more relaxing, 
though I really had to get used to his more subtle signals. And when he 
sees something he doesn't know how to navigate up ahead, he just stops 
and thinks. He seems to plan a block or two ahead, so I just have to 
recognize his thinking pose and wait to see what he figures out. By now, 
he doesn't need to do that much since he has experience to use in 
generalizing.

Dogs are just plain interesting, and working with a guide dog is the 
best way ever to learn how interesting they really are.

Tami

On 11/04/2017 11:01 PM, Charlene Ota via NAGDU wrote:
> Jeanne, I remember asking my trainer while I was in training with my current
> dog Irish if Irish really had the confidence and assertiveness to deal with
> things like traffic. My trainer emphatically told me that yes he most
> certainly did. I asked him that because Irish was so quiet and gentle.
> Well, over the years we've been together, I can certainly tell you that when
> it came time to step up to the plate and deal with difficult situations, he
> was right there with the best of them. He is a quiet gentle dog, but
> nobody's got my best interests like he does and he can work his way through
> obstacles and find his way out of buildings and deal with traffic and other
> difficult situations very well.  He may be quiet and gentle, but he's got
> nerves of steel and very seldom gets rattled. He's almost retired now and
> it's really been difficult making that decision but he'll be 13 in January
> and he has so much trouble with his joints that he can't get into vehicles
> without help and he's starting to drag his leg and just get tired. He's been
> a wonderful guide and I'm going to miss him terribly and if I get another
> dog that dog's going to have a hard act to follow, that's for sure. I just
> say all this because temperament doesn't always tell you about the dog's
> character or abilities. Some people need those gentle dogs for lots of
> different reasons, so I know I for one am glad they're out there.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jean Menzies via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2017 7:16 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Jean Menzies <jemenzies at shaw.ca>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] finding things
> 
> Oh, Sandra, isn't that the truth. And the danger is when we have had a few
> dogs, we start to make those assumptions that may or may not be true.
> Referring to your soft dog being excellent at find. I never would have
> thought that. So, then it comes back around to not prejudging temperment,
> and just try to be clear as to what skill proficiencies might be what we
> hope for. Then work with the marriage of two beings and create the dance.
> Every waltz is beautiful.
> 
> Jean and Bode
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: S L Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2017 3:41 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: S L Johnson
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] finding things
> 
> Jean:
> 
> The interesting thing is that from my experience I have had both assertive
> dogs and soft gentle dogs be very good at find.  a couple of my most
> stubborn hard to handle dogs were good at find but so were my soft gentle
> dogs too.  One excellent example is Eva who is classified as a very soft
> gentle dog but is confident and sure of herself when working.  I think no
> matter what school you get your dog from it is a matter of luck as to how
> good that dog will be with the find command and other aspects of guide work.
> These wonderful dogs are great but they are not perfect and all have
> different strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> Sandra and Eva
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2017 4:50 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Jean Menzies
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] finding things
> 
> Hi Sandra,
> 
> I have to agree with you. My best finders have been the more confident ones,
> and the gentle quieter ones not so much. The problem as I see it is that it
> is getting harder and harder to get a really confident dog, since schools
> are going for the quieter softer dogs more and more. I know some will
> disagree, but that's how my 6 dogs so far have been.
> 
> Jean and Bode
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: S L Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2017 1:42 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: S L Johnson
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] finding things
> 
> Wayne:
> 
> I love using "find the way".  It covers a lot of situations from obstacles
> to crowded areas.  Eva is excellent when I tell her to "find the way".  She
> will pause, look around, then move out confidently to get us out of all
> kinds of situations.  I think the more confident your dog is the better they
> will be with the concept of find.  That is just my opinion drawn from my 42
> years of experience working with guide dogs,  some from schools who taught
> find and some whom I have taught find myself after graduation.
> 
> Sandra and Eva
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wayne & Harley via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2017 2:09 PM
> To: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
> Cc: Wayne & Harley
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] finding things
> 
> *Hi Jean,
> All my Leader pups were taught "Find" and "find the" before I was matched
> with them. Customizing the "Find" and "find the" has been quite easy.Â  When
> I became an Owner Trainer the pups were taught "find" and "find the" from
> the get-go.
> Â Â Â  As for being good "avoiders" they have all been stellar. A funny
> story from when I was on class with LD Sequoia, my very first Leader Dog. It
> was the first day that we were going to be doing obstacles and our trainer,
> Jim Gardener, had explained to me how it was supposed to go. Dog works up to
> said obstacle and stops, I explore with hands/feet to try to determine
> information and based on that information gained give the pup a "Hup left",
> or "Hup right". Well, no one told Sequoia the script. We approached the
> first obstacle and instead of stopping he just took us around it. Now having
> had "FOLLOW YOUR DOG" pounded into my head by Guide Dog owning friends since
> I'd met my first Guide Dog in 1987, I did just that and followed my dog.Â
> Jim was cracking up when he caught up with us. It appears that Sequoia had
> decided to skip directly to Advanced lever obstacle avoidance on his own.Â
> Nowadays, when it comes to obstacles, I use "Find the way" and let Harley
> use his best judgement. He's the one that can see after all. He'll stop for
> some things, others we zip around them.
> 
> Your Mileage May Vary
> 
> Wayne And Harley D
> 
> *On 11/1/2017 12:08 PM, Jean Menzies via NAGDU wrote:
>> Hi Dan,
>>
>> Some of my dogs over the years wouldn't find much of anything. lol.
>> Some, especially in the early days of my dog experiences, were great
>> obstacle avoiders, but lousy finders. Perhaps find wasn't taught as a
>> skill and they never quite understood it, or perhaps I didn't know how
>> to teach it back then. Who knows. But since then, I have been through
>> several programs that actively teach find, and I have found that those
>> dogs get it. They are good at avoidance, but also good at locating.
>> When they know the difference, it is much easier to teach new objects
>> for finding. JMO. I think it is also a bit dog dependent. Some might
>> just be better at that skill.
>>
>> Personally, I do think that if they are taught a specific concept of
>> actually finding things in training, they are much better at finding,
>> and then we can build on that. I have also found that my dogs with
>> higher drive have been better at it than the calmer softer types. But
>> that is a big generalization, and is just what I have experienced so far.
>>
>> Jean and Bode
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Dan Weiner via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:55 AM
>> To: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
>> Cc: Dan Weiner
>> Subject: [NAGDU] finding things
>>
>> just a point of discussion, I really think these skills finding
>> chairs, elevators, buttons all of those are something my dogs have
>> learned
>>
>>
>> Â but to get them to be consistent I've had o really hall butt and
>> practice even if they were exposed to it at guide dog school, what
>> have other people found?
>>
>> Warmest regards,
>>
>> Dan and Parker the chair-finder--smileOn 11/1/2017 12:16 PM, Jean
>> Menzies via NAGDU wrote:
>>> Andy, thanks for your detailed response. It really helps in comparing
>>> how the dogs might work, not taking into account personality of
>>> course. In 34 years of having guide dogs, I have gone through 3
>>> different programs. I change based on what taught skills I think will
>>> best suit my lifestyle at a given point. All the programs have been
>>> excellent, and my choice to change is not based on anything except
>>> examining the skills the dogs are taught and thinking about what I need.
> Thanks for sharing.
>>>
>>> Jean and Bode
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Andy Borka via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 7:12 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Cc: Andy Borka
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] choosing a school
>>>
>>> Hi Jean,
>>>
>>> I recently graduated from Seeing Eye. In fact, Alec and I came home
>>> in August of this year. We will attempt to answer your questions as
>>> much as possible.
>>>
>>> Food rewards used or not used
>>> During training, food rewards are usually forbidden. The dogs are
>>> taught to drive from your love and praises after each successful
>>> task. Only when you get home might a trainer recommend food rewards
>>> along with clicker training. This is done after arriving home because
>>> your dog will not have any concept of where he/she is at the time.
>>> After building their confidence with a route, phase out the treats,
>>> then the clicker Skill sets â?"Is Find the ... taught? If so, what
>>> objects or items are the dogs taught to find initially?
>>> They are taught inside/outside and doors. Aside from this, your dog
>>> is taught to generalize. An example is a table. If you normally sit
>>> at a table in a lounge, then ask your dog to find a table, he might
>>> take you to the one you would normally sit at, but he will take you to a
> table.
>>> After sitting in a specific spot for a few days, he will start taking
>>> you directly to that spot. Seeing Eye dogs are heavily patterned for
>>> your specific needs. Therefore, most of the patterning and
>>> generalization is done during class. Right now, Alec can find inside,
>>> outside, the door, home, park, the bus, the wall (at a specific
>>> street corner), the service desk at Walmart, the checkout register at
>>> Walgreens, the down ramp at certain street corners (offset
>>> crossings), things I drop on the ground (my keys on one occasion),
>>> steps (both up and down), cars I normally ride in, specific people he
>>> knows fairly well, and return points during a route. Most of these he
> learned during class or after getting home.
>>> Traffic work â?" exposure to quiet cars Seeing Eye has a quiet car
>>> they use during traning and traffic checks.
>>> During class, staff members will drive around in different types of
>>> vehicles. When students attempt to cross the street, they will give
>>> you and your dog a traffic check. A traffic check is a situation
>>> where the driver poses a potential danger to you or your dog. An
>>> example is pulling out directly in front of you during a crossing.
>>> One of these cars is a quiet car. Often, they request the general
>>> public give you traffic checks at random. I remember a time where we
>>> ended up boxed in between four cars during a crossing. The
>>> unfortunate complexity of this situation is the cars that boxed us in
>>> were still moving. Alec expertly guided me out of the problem and
>>> across the street. Traffic is an important topic. Roughly
>>> 4 hours of lectures are dedicated to handling traffic.
>>>
>>> Application process: Number of references, home video The application
>>> process is not complicated. Go to seeingeye.org, click admissions,
>>> then apply, then apply online. You create a username/password. When
>>> you arrive at the application, you have to fill out sections related
>>> to contact info, vision, general health, mobility, references, class
>>> date preferences, etc. You have to provide three references. The cost
>>> for a dog is $150 paid to the school whenever you can afford to do
>>> so. When the initial application is approved, they send you medical
>>> forms to have your doctor fill out and send back. They will send a
>>> trainer out to evaluate your current mobility skills. Since you have
>>> a dog, I donâ?Tt know how they would evaluate mobility skills. In the
>>> same visit, the trainer would give you a juno walk. If everything is
>>> good to go, you will receive a class date. At that time, they would
>>> walk you through the legal paperwork and travel arrangements.
>>>
>>> These questions have been answered based on my own experience, and
>>> what trainers have told me during class.
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>
>>> From: Jean Menzies via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 2:10 PM
>>> To: NAGDU
>>> Cc: Jean Menzies
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] choosing a school
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Without going into the details now, I am looking at dog retirement,
>>> and getting applications started for dogÂ  number 7. Even if I end up
>>> delaying exceptance, the paperwork will be good for two years, and
>>> there are reasons to get going on it now.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My current dog is from Leader. He is wonderful, and I really like the
>>> skill sets that LD puts on their dogs. But in deciding if I stay or
>>> change schools, I want some information on the Seing Eye as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For anyone who has been to either school recently, or for those who
>>> have been to both, I would like your thoughts on the following points:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Food rewards used or not used
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If food rewards are used, are they phased out or maintained
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Skill sets â?"
>>>
>>> Is Find the ... taught? If so, what objects or items are the dogs
>>> taught to find initially? E.g., empty chairs/benches, stairs up/down,
>>> pushbutton poles, doors, inside/outside, etc.?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Traffic work â?" exposure to quiet cars
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Application process: Number of references, home video
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm interested in comparing the skill sets and working styles of the
>>> dogs, so please, no info on meals, rooms, etc. That's not important
>>> to me. Any info anyone can provide on current training from the two
>>> programs would be appreciated.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jean
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>>
>>
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