[NAGDU] CGC test could our dogs do it?

The Pawpower Pack pawpower4me at gmail.com
Tue Oct 3 19:59:57 UTC 2017 

All of my evaluators have allowed a controlled pull. Or for me to work the dog during the test— my choice. 
The thing is that a chain collar is also a training tool, as is a head collar or treats. So why are they allowing one and not the other. Just like a dog who is clicker trained should be able to work without treats, a dog training using KMODT or some other j/p method should, 'in my opinion be expected to work without that training collar, whether it be a prong or a training chain collar. 

 Rox and the kitchen Bitches: 
Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
Pawpower4me at gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 3, 2017, at 2:44 PM, Danielle Sykora via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I am positive my dog could pass the CGC... except for the walking on
> loose leash.
> 
> The thing about treats, toys, prongs, and headcollars are that they
> are training tools. Just because they are used sometimes, doesn't mean
> they are required at all times for the dog to be civilized. I use
> treats with my dog, but that doesn't mean I need to carry treats 24/7
> or my dog won't be able to do anything. While I understand completely
> why you wouldn't be allowed to use these in a one time test, using
> these tools with a dog on occasion doesn't mean they aren't trained.
> 
> Also, the CGC is a lot more simple than service dog training
> obviously. I don't use treats with my dog for basic obedience and
> ignoring well behaved dogs or neutral people in a crowd for example. I
> might use treats on occasion because my dog ignored the dog lunging
> and growling at the end of its leash two feet away, or for targeting a
> building from across a parking lot.
> 
> I have wondered in the past if it would be possible to negociate
> allowing a controlled pull during the CGC for blind handlers/trainers
> of guide dogs. On the one hand, a controled pull is completely
> different than a dog dragging its owner behind it; but on the other
> hand, I doubt many AKC evaluators know anything about guide dogs or
> how blind people train dogs.
> 
> 
> Danielle and Thai
> 
> 
> 
>> On 10/3/17, Vivianna via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Here is a link with the test items for the CGCA test which is the next level
>> above the CGC.  This link describes the test items.  The only thing here is
>> that the dog must perform on a loose leash again.  I don’t use a loose leash
>> with my dog.  I do maintain some contact with the dog so that i can tell
>> what he’s doing.
>> So, i have not trained him to be on a loose looping leash.  i’m sure he
>> could do it if i had trained him that way.
>> also, it looks like the dogs that take this test must be AKC registered
>> which my dog is not.  i see no reason to register a altered dog.
>> http://www.conchokennelclub.org/cgca.htm
>> 
>> Vivianna
>> 
>>> On Oct 3, 2017, at 10:34 AM, S L Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Vivianna:
>>> 
>>> To answer your question, could my dog do it?  Well the honest answer is
>>> that
>>> she might not pass.  Eva is now four and a half years old but in her mind
>>> she is still a goofy golden puppy.  Many years ago with one of my previous
>>> 
>>> dogs I was at the vet and Cinnamon was acting completely silly.  I said oh
>>> 
>>> when will you ever grow up and the vet answered, "when she is fifteen".
>>> Golden retrievers just seem to remain like a puppy all their lives.  If I
>>> am
>>> not careful Eva will try to get attention from anyone who makes eye
>>> contact
>>> with her.  Also her little golden feet just can't always remain on the
>>> floor.  A common verbal reminder around the house if anyone comes in the
>>> door or in our daily travels is  "four on the floor please"  She is
>>> excessively friendly and just can't resist on trying to play with
>>> everyone.
>>> I will admit it is probably a bit of my fault.  Due to some significant
>>> health issues I have not been able to work her much so she has probably
>>> become a bit lax in her proper guide dog manners.  I looked at the website
>>> 
>>> and I think now that I am finally beginning to feel a bit stronger I will
>>> begin to use that as a guideline to bring her behavior back into line.  I
>>> also wish I could train the public to leave this little cute cuddly golden
>>> 
>>> alone.  I know she is cute and adorable but, she is a guide dog not a pet
>>> to
>>> all who see her.  Vivianna, good luck training your puppy and please keep
>>> us
>>> posted of your progress.  I think all of us and our dogs could benefit
>>> from
>>> the CGC Test for behavior.  Thanks for posting this for us.
>>> 
>>> Sandra Johnson and Eva, the goofy golden
>>> SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Vivianna via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 7:27 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Cc: Vivianna
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] CGC test could our dogs do it?
>>> 
>>> Here you go.
>>> http://www.akc.org/dog-owners/training/canine-good-citizen/training-testing/
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 2, 2017, at 11:49 AM, Ashley Coleman via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbn
>>> 
>>>> et.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hello Vivianna
>>>> Can you share the link for the CGC test with the group? I am curious of
>>>> the parts of the test.
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Vivianna via
>>>> NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 1, 2017 7:20 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Vivianna <irishana at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] CGC test could our dogs do it?
>>>> 
>>>> Hello,
>>>> Yes, you can use a chain slip collar.  and, yes, one of the tests is that
>>>> 
>>>> the dog has to stay with a stranger for 3 minutes while the owner goes
>>>> out
>>>> of sight.
>>>> what i found interesting is, the AKC does not consider the dog fully
>>>> trained unles it can perform tasks without treats or toys.
>>>> many many guide dogs are trained with treats and sent home with the blind
>>>> 
>>>> person giving out treats regularly.
>>>> also, i had a friend tell me that, even on TV when they have the fancy
>>>> dog
>>>> shows, the handlers are going around the ring with their hands held in
>>>> front of the show dog holding a treat.
>>>> i was amazed to hear that westminster dog show allows the body position
>>>> to
>>>> be guided by a treat.
>>>> 
>>>> my dog is still to young and, his attention span is to short for me to
>>>> even try such a test but, give him a couple more months and, i am hoping
>>>> that he would be able to ace it.
>>>> i may or may not actually take the test but, itā?Ts a good guideline to
>>>> look at.
>>>> 
>>>> Vivianna
>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 1, 2017, at 6:00 PM, Jenine Stanley via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Back in I think it was 2007, GDUI had a CGC test at its national
>>>>> convention. To say it was chaotic is an understatement but I think most
>>>>> of the teams who went through it did pass with no changes in the test
>>>>> that I recall. I decided not to do it with my then current dog as she
>>>>> had
>>>>> serious recall issues. My current dog could hold a stay that long, no
>>>>> problem. Isnā?Tt one of the tests to go out of sight of the dog and
>>>>> return for either recall or just a stay?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think my current guy could actually do this as could my previous dog
>>>>> but my Lab/Poodle cross, no way. Sheā?Td have enjoyed doing laps around
>>>>> the testing venue then egging on her fellow canines as they tried to do
>>>>> their tasks. Great guide, interesting obedience.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2017, at 5:43 PM, Vivianna via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>> So, as most of you know, I am owner-training my five-and-a-half month
>>>>>> old dog.  I was interested in perhaps getting him CGC certified just
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> fun.
>>>>>> While looking up the 10 tests that the dog must pass i was thinking,
>>>>>> just how many dogs that come from schools could actually pass this
>>>>>> test?
>>>>>> my answer is, unfortunately, not very many at all.
>>>>>> one of the tests is to have the dog hold either a sit or down from 20
>>>>>> feet away and remain there until the tester tells you to call the dog
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> you.
>>>>>> and, at no time during the testing is the handler allowed to use treats
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> or toys to get the dog to perform.  Also, no training gear such as,
>>>>>> head
>>>>>> collars or prong collars can be used.
>>>>>> All of my dogs except my last one could have passed this test but, my
>>>>>> last dog could not have held the stay at all.
>>>>>> my puppy can hold the stay inside now and for a short time outside with
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> me only about 5 feet from him.  and, he works totally without treats or
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> toys or clickers etc.  his recall isnā?Tt that great yet we are still
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the flexy leash.
>>>>>> on the website where i was looking up the CGC  test, it states that, if
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> the dog can not perform the tasks without treats or training gear then
>>>>>> they do not consider him fully trained.
>>>>>> Just thought this might spark some interesting discussion.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Vivianna
>>>>>> coollars, prong collars
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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