[NAGDU] NAGDU Digest, Vol 165, Issue 14
Retina
pwolf1 at wolfskills.com
Sat Dec 22 18:24:06 UTC 2018
Hi all,
Thank you for the quick responses.
Marion,
Your response hit the nail on the head. Our responses in the doctors office were aligned with this. And I appreciated the references both to CDC, and who to contact if we initate a complaint. I’ll write to you offline.
Sandra,
Thanks for your response as well. I think that, from the sound of your message, we may not know each other well enough from having read enough of each other’s NADGU posts over time. So to fill you in, Kira is a service dog for my wife for mobility assistance. Metukah, my silken wonder, works cross-purpose with me, working between guiding for neurological vision impairment and also impaired (physical) spatial proprioception. Although I do have a guide harness, we most often work on short leash. When walking, or just on my feet in any form, my world within cane-tip arc range is essentially like an ever changing kaleiodoscope. With bizarre vision like this, who needs drugs? Spatially, we now shift back and forth between equipment, which is harness, leash, and gentle leader. Even if she wears a harness, there ia still always a leash in the rig too.
But in either case, in public, each working dog wears a well seasoned cape at all times, with significant patches, which note service dog, and, working, do not distract, at the high shoulder and one on each side of the ribcage. So what you cited (and which is always appropriate to cite), is always a good idea. I actually like a patch, even on a harness handle, that says "ignore me, I am working", located mid way up in the center of the handle. (FYI, if any of you have ever looked for an effective “IGNORE ME” handle placard like that, they have really good ones at the Lighthouse in San Francisco). Metukah always has the cape, even if wearing a harness, so that whether or not we use a harness, or if we are caught between vehicles, suitcases, or whatever, there’s always an indication on her of a working dog.
This public service dog recognition thing can almost get comical. Kira and Metukah do a good job of staying well focused on each of us, amidst human or canine distractions. We’ve noticed a fair amount of other dogs doing the kind of stuff that you mentioned, like head in the bucket mistakes. For dogs, a good training and a little reinforcement goes a long way. Humans are another story! When on my feet, I am really busy working to feel what foreign concepts like “gravity" or “space” ought to feel like, as well as the crazy vision thing. Some of you guys may have experience this. I regularly miss catching people as they have already moved in, and are trying to engage my dog from peripheral, or other angles. We started with noting that people came in and began petting… whoops, too late… they’re already in. So we patched with: Do Not Pet. So then they would begin petting… And then out loud, they would catch themselves... and say, "Oh, so sorry, I shouldn’t pet you”… … and then proceed to…pat/pat/pat instead. Metukah: (Demures, turns to me…or like, “what are you doing?” Me: Hey, get off my dog!
So we got smarter, we thought. We changed it to : “Do Not Touch”. Then they would go from petting, and patting, to locking face to face or some other variation saying, Oh, sweetie, I’m so sorry I can’t touch you”. Dog and me, rotate and turn away … Or...Hey, get off my dog!
Then we went to: Working: Do Not Distract”. This has worked better. Now fewer people people came in close, but then, knuckleheads, instead they called, or made kissy sounds, and otherwise tried to get the dogs attention, saying, Oh, you’re so sweet and well behaved, I know I really shouldn’t distract you”. Peter: Hey, got off my dog!
I like “ignore” the best!
But lets get back to the point:
I agree with you, behavior as bottom line is everything. They both were trained impeccably. We (and it seems, the dogs too), tend to entertain other dog’s out of line behavior with a blank expression and just move on. And we rarely make it through an airport without holding that line, as a range of from one to three fake dogs on the way through bark, lung or snap at at least one of us. We’ve even put up with and ignored that crap, right in line to the gate podium while boarding.
I do not agree with the government ID card or certificate approach, because it would (and already does in commercial I.D. forms)) result in ethical abuses. I think that what Delta has done to eliminate (quote) emotional support dogs (unquote) on long hauls is extreme, but necessary. That is because of what I just described above, which we have also encountered as behavior problems on planes in the air as well.
Danielle, ditto, and thanks. And good mention from anyone that if (I) walk into a room wearing street clothes, I am most assuredly carrying whatever foreign matter my dog might as well in a non-sterile environment.
Again, thank you all.
My best,
Peter
> On Dec 21, 2018, at 4:00 AM, nagdu-request at nfbnet.org wrote:
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Refused at medical office (Retina)
> 2. Re: Refused at medical office (Sandra Johnson)
> 3. Re: Refused at medical office (NAGDU President)
> 4. Re: Refused at medical office (Milissa Garside)
> 5. Re: Refused at medical office (Danielle Sykora)
> 6. Re: Refused at medical office (cindyray at gmail.com)
> 7. Re: Refused at medical office (Marianne Denning)
> 8. Re: Refused at medical office (Melissa Allman)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 15:32:55 -0800
> From: Retina <pwolf1 at wolfskills.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
> Message-ID: <D750F43F-C205-481B-B542-3EC703133B9C at wolfskills.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Hi folks,
>
> Will the legally informed of you please advise me?
>
> My wife and I just went into an MD Aesthetician?s office to inquire about a procedure. I had Metukah, and she had here service dog Kira. On entering, the receptionist, instead of ?hello,? said to us at the door, ?Sorry, the dog will have to go outside?. Andrea said, ?She?s a service dog; by federal law she can he can be with me.?
>
> The receptionist called over another who took over. She asked a few operative questions about whether she had advance paperwork for the procedure. As she did the room temperature dropped. She followed that that Kira could not accompany her into an exam room, ?because they are sterile.? This was curious, because we had recently visited a physician in a clinic up in Portland, where were inquiring as well in case the procedure might be done up there. They had no issue in the lobby, or in the exam room.
>
> In this case, when Andrea said in response that there should not be an issue and that by law she could accompany her in an exam room, (even if not specifically inside a surgical suite which might be understandable), frost formed on this receptionist and on the walls.
>
> My wife said to me that she was uncomfortable, picked up the paperwork, and we left. Too bad, because this physician was a wonderful man and a great doctor who once saved her life with emergency surgery. We knew that since his career change to skin, he?d probably be one of the best locally.
>
> We would like to do him the courtesy of writing an informational letter so that he learns what happened and has a chance to get his staff educated. My wife said that she is considering filing a complaint with DOJ. But before that, we should simply get clear information as it applies to this specific circumstance. Can one of you who is clear on ADA with this specific type situation inform us?
>
> Thanks,
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:19:46 -0500
> From: "Sandra Johnson" <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
> Message-ID: <AA51A885ABF04448ABED4B921C632AD0 at JOHNSON>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8";
> reply-type=original
>
> Peter:
>
> It is not uncommon to have medical facilities say a dog cannot accompany a
> patient into a sterile area. This is not discrimination but patient safety.
> I recently had this situation. My doctor and staff are all aware that I am
> blind and that Eva is a guide dog. However, the medical proceedure was
> being done in a sterile area therefore Eva could not accompany me. I was
> asked if anyone was with me that could watch my dog. When I informed them I
> was alone several staff members eagerly offered to watch her while I was in
> the sterile area. Second, the dog is your guide dog, not your wife's.
> Therefore right of access with a service dog laws would not cover her
> wanting your dog with her. Finally you did not say your dog was in a
> standard guide dog harness. If she is not in harness, how is anyone
> supposed to know she is a trained guide dog. Anyone can buy service dog
> gear online so the general public and any medical professionals cannot tell
> the difference. This is why I and many others feel a government issued ID
> card for professionally trained guide and service dogs is what should be
> done. I am tired of all the fake service dogs making my life difficult. I
> know in your case the dog is necessary but it is important for you to be
> sure she can be identified as a guide dog not a pet.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Retina via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 6:32 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Retina
> Subject: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>
> Hi folks,
>
> Will the legally informed of you please advise me?
>
> My wife and I just went into an MD Aesthetician?s office to inquire about a
> procedure. I had Metukah, and she had here service dog Kira. On entering,
> the receptionist, instead of ?hello,? said to us at the door, ?Sorry, the
> dog will have to go outside?. Andrea said, ?She?s a service dog; by federal
> law she can he can be with me.?
>
> The receptionist called over another who took over. She asked a few
> operative questions about whether she had advance paperwork for the
> procedure. As she did the room temperature dropped. She followed that that
> Kira could not accompany her into an exam room, ?because they are sterile.?
> This was curious, because we had recently visited a physician in a clinic up
> in Portland, where were inquiring as well in case the procedure might be
> done up there. They had no issue in the lobby, or in the exam room.
>
> In this case, when Andrea said in response that there should not be an issue
> and that by law she could accompany her in an exam room, (even if not
> specifically inside a surgical suite which might be understandable), frost
> formed on this receptionist and on the walls.
>
> My wife said to me that she was uncomfortable, picked up the paperwork, and
> we left. Too bad, because this physician was a wonderful man and a great
> doctor who once saved her life with emergency surgery. We knew that since
> his career change to skin, he?d probably be one of the best locally.
>
> We would like to do him the courtesy of writing an informational letter so
> that he learns what happened and has a chance to get his staff educated. My
> wife said that she is considering filing a complaint with DOJ. But before
> that, we should simply get clear information as it applies to this specific
> circumstance. Can one of you who is clear on ADA with this specific type
> situation inform us?
>
> Thanks,
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:23:28 -0500
> From: "NAGDU President" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
> Message-ID: <005101d498cb$c7aec610$570c5230$@verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear All,
>
> The information I will share should be considered informal guidance only; it should not be considered legal advice. Private entities that provide public accommodations are required to allow an individual with a disability the right to be accompanied by a service dog unless doing so would pose a "direct threat". A direct threat means a significant risk to the health or safety of others that cannot be eliminated by a reasonable modification of policies, practices, and procedures. If an entity asserts the presence of a service animal poses a direct threat, they must demonstrate that the animal poses such a threat; it is not up to the individual accompanied by a service dog to demonstrate it does not. This is what is known as an affirmative defense. In other words, they must prove a "Yes".
>
> The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) asserts that the presence of a service dog poses no more risk to the health or safety of others than does a human. Though it is true that a dog in a sterile environment would be considered a direct threat, an examination room is not a sterile environment. One method of determining if a sterile environment exists is whether or not those entering the room must scrub and don masks, gowns, and gloves prior to entering. If those in the room are wearing their street clothes, it is absolutely not a sterile environment and a service dog should be admitted. The only exception to this rule would be if there were equipment essential for life support, such as in an intensive care unit. I have attached a document from the CDC entitled, "Environmental infection control in health care facilities" you may wish to share with the physicians office. If this document is stripped by the servor, you can write to me directly and I will send it to you. I would also be willing to contact the medical facility and discuss this issue with them. If they are unwilling to modify their policies, practices, and procedures to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act, I would strongly suggest filing a complaint with the United States Department of Justice, your local law enforcement office (it may be a criminal violation of your state statutes), your state's advocacy and protection office, and the state entity licensing the physician and the practice to set this facility straight.
>
> If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to write back or give me a call. My contact information is below my signature.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
> National Federation of the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG
> Visit our website
> Follow us on Twitter
> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds you back.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 7:20 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Sandra Johnson
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>
> Peter:
>
> It is not uncommon to have medical facilities say a dog cannot accompany a
> patient into a sterile area. This is not discrimination but patient safety.
> I recently had this situation. My doctor and staff are all aware that I am
> blind and that Eva is a guide dog. However, the medical proceedure was
> being done in a sterile area therefore Eva could not accompany me. I was
> asked if anyone was with me that could watch my dog. When I informed them I
> was alone several staff members eagerly offered to watch her while I was in
> the sterile area. Second, the dog is your guide dog, not your wife's.
> Therefore right of access with a service dog laws would not cover her
> wanting your dog with her. Finally you did not say your dog was in a
> standard guide dog harness. If she is not in harness, how is anyone
> supposed to know she is a trained guide dog. Anyone can buy service dog
> gear online so the general public and any medical professionals cannot tell
> the difference. This is why I and many others feel a government issued ID
> card for professionally trained guide and service dogs is what should be
> done. I am tired of all the fake service dogs making my life difficult. I
> know in your case the dog is necessary but it is important for you to be
> sure she can be identified as a guide dog not a pet.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Retina via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 6:32 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Retina
> Subject: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>
> Hi folks,
>
> Will the legally informed of you please advise me?
>
> My wife and I just went into an MD Aesthetician?s office to inquire about a
> procedure. I had Metukah, and she had here service dog Kira. On entering,
> the receptionist, instead of ?hello,? said to us at the door, ?Sorry, the
> dog will have to go outside?. Andrea said, ?She?s a service dog; by federal
> law she can he can be with me.?
>
> The receptionist called over another who took over. She asked a few
> operative questions about whether she had advance paperwork for the
> procedure. As she did the room temperature dropped. She followed that that
> Kira could not accompany her into an exam room, ?because they are sterile.?
> This was curious, because we had recently visited a physician in a clinic up
> in Portland, where were inquiring as well in case the procedure might be
> done up there. They had no issue in the lobby, or in the exam room.
>
> In this case, when Andrea said in response that there should not be an issue
> and that by law she could accompany her in an exam room, (even if not
> specifically inside a surgical suite which might be understandable), frost
> formed on this receptionist and on the walls.
>
> My wife said to me that she was uncomfortable, picked up the paperwork, and
> we left. Too bad, because this physician was a wonderful man and a great
> doctor who once saved her life with emergency surgery. We knew that since
> his career change to skin, he?d probably be one of the best locally.
>
> We would like to do him the courtesy of writing an informational letter so
> that he learns what happened and has a chance to get his staff educated. My
> wife said that she is considering filing a complaint with DOJ. But before
> that, we should simply get clear information as it applies to this specific
> circumstance. Can one of you who is clear on ADA with this specific type
> situation inform us?
>
> Thanks,
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:26:27 -0500
> From: Milissa Garside <mgarside2 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
> Message-ID: <E8389C92-1795-4675-B199-2A98791B0335 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Sandra,
>
>
> Last I checked, a doctors exam room is not a sterile environment like an operating room is. Of course however, anything is possible but, I highly doubt that these exam rooms were sterile.
>
> Also, just as an FYI, the presence of a guide dog harness does not mean that the dog is a legitimate guide dog. As you say, fake certification and other service dog equipment can be purchased online. If you type in guide dog harness into the search field on Amazon, you will find that you can purchase the K9 Juious Guide dog harness. It is not the service dogs visible equipment or the presence of any ID that make it a legitimate service dog. After all, even if we were required to show an ID proving our dogs are in fact legitimate service dogs, an ID does not guarantee good behavior. Secondly, it is so easy to fake an ID; Yes, even government IDs. Do you know how easy it is for folks under 21 to get fake IDs to enter bars and to buy liquor? And, not to be controversial or anything but, I?m sure that many of us know a guide dog user or two who?s dogs are poorly behaved. An ID in those situations again, would not guarantee good behavior.
>
> I once was standing in line in a Starbucks behind another blind gentleman with a guide dog. As he was standing at the counter ordering, his dog had its head deep into the open cooler next to the counter sniffing all of the food. I know that sometimes we can get distracted and are not always aware of what our dogs are doing. After all, no one is perfect. :-) so, I politely told the gentleman what his guide dog was doing in the event that he did not know. The gentleman?s response to me was ?I know, its OK. At that point, I told him that I was also a guide dog user and that what his dog was doing was certainly not OK and that it was inappropriate for his dogs head to be deep in the open cooler sniffing all of the food. When he left, I spoke to the manager and told her that she had every right to ask him to leave. Her response to me was that she could not do anything because his dog was a real service dog. Um, so, yeah, how would an ID proving that the dog was a legitimate service dog help in that situation? If anything, IDs would just encourage businesses and airlines to take and even more hands off approach. Things are not going to get better until businesses and airlines start taking their responsibilities seriously by exercising their legal rights and insisting that poorly behaved dogs be removed from the premises.
>
> Milissa ?
>
> Milissa
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Dec 20, 2018, at 7:19 PM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Peter:
>>
>> It is not uncommon to have medical facilities say a dog cannot accompany a patient into a sterile area. This is not discrimination but patient safety. I recently had this situation. My doctor and staff are all aware that I am blind and that Eva is a guide dog. However, the medical proceedure was being done in a sterile area therefore Eva could not accompany me. I was asked if anyone was with me that could watch my dog. When I informed them I was alone several staff members eagerly offered to watch her while I was in the sterile area. Second, the dog is your guide dog, not your wife's. Therefore right of access with a service dog laws would not cover her wanting your dog with her. Finally you did not say your dog was in a standard guide dog harness. If she is not in harness, how is anyone supposed to know she is a trained guide dog. Anyone can buy service dog gear online so the general public and any medical professionals cannot tell the difference. This is why I and many others feel a government issued ID card for professionally trained guide and service dogs is what should be done. I am tired of all the fake service dogs making my life difficult. I know in your case the dog is necessary but it is important for you to be sure she can be identified as a guide dog not a pet.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Retina via NAGDU
>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 6:32 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Retina
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> Will the legally informed of you please advise me?
>>
>> My wife and I just went into an MD Aesthetician?s office to inquire about a procedure. I had Metukah, and she had here service dog Kira. On entering, the receptionist, instead of ?hello,? said to us at the door, ?Sorry, the dog will have to go outside?. Andrea said, ?She?s a service dog; by federal law she can he can be with me.?
>>
>> The receptionist called over another who took over. She asked a few operative questions about whether she had advance paperwork for the procedure. As she did the room temperature dropped. She followed that that Kira could not accompany her into an exam room, ?because they are sterile.? This was curious, because we had recently visited a physician in a clinic up in Portland, where were inquiring as well in case the procedure might be done up there. They had no issue in the lobby, or in the exam room.
>>
>> In this case, when Andrea said in response that there should not be an issue and that by law she could accompany her in an exam room, (even if not specifically inside a surgical suite which might be understandable), frost formed on this receptionist and on the walls.
>>
>> My wife said to me that she was uncomfortable, picked up the paperwork, and we left. Too bad, because this physician was a wonderful man and a great doctor who once saved her life with emergency surgery. We knew that since his career change to skin, he?d probably be one of the best locally.
>>
>> We would like to do him the courtesy of writing an informational letter so that he learns what happened and has a chance to get his staff educated. My wife said that she is considering filing a complaint with DOJ. But before that, we should simply get clear information as it applies to this specific circumstance. Can one of you who is clear on ADA with this specific type situation inform us?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mgarside2%40gmail.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:32:28 -0500
> From: Danielle Sykora <dsykora29 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
> Message-ID: <73AD1A73-BB9B-4E69-8536-25056633740C at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Service dogs are not allowed in sterile environments; however, they must be truly sterile. Service dogs are not permitted in the OR or typically burn units where mask/gloves/other procedures are necessary. Exam rooms are definitely not sterile environments. Generally, if you can walk in with your normal clothes and shoes, your service dog can accompany you.
> I believe Peter uses a guide dog and his wife uses a non-guiding service dog, correct me if I?m wrong. Most service dogs do not wear guide harnesses, and it is unfair to say that a dog must wear a guide harness or discrimination is acceptable.
> Danielle, Thai, and Jackie
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Dec 20, 2018, at 7:19 PM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Peter:
>>
>> It is not uncommon to have medical facilities say a dog cannot accompany a patient into a sterile area. This is not discrimination but patient safety. I recently had this situation. My doctor and staff are all aware that I am blind and that Eva is a guide dog. However, the medical proceedure was being done in a sterile area therefore Eva could not accompany me. I was asked if anyone was with me that could watch my dog. When I informed them I was alone several staff members eagerly offered to watch her while I was in the sterile area. Second, the dog is your guide dog, not your wife's. Therefore right of access with a service dog laws would not cover her wanting your dog with her. Finally you did not say your dog was in a standard guide dog harness. If she is not in harness, how is anyone supposed to know she is a trained guide dog. Anyone can buy service dog gear online so the general public and any medical professionals cannot tell the difference. This is why I and many others feel a government issued ID card for professionally trained guide and service dogs is what should be done. I am tired of all the fake service dogs making my life difficult. I know in your case the dog is necessary but it is important for you to be sure she can be identified as a guide dog not a pet.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Retina via NAGDU
>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 6:32 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Retina
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> Will the legally informed of you please advise me?
>>
>> My wife and I just went into an MD Aesthetician?s office to inquire about a procedure. I had Metukah, and she had here service dog Kira. On entering, the receptionist, instead of ?hello,? said to us at the door, ?Sorry, the dog will have to go outside?. Andrea said, ?She?s a service dog; by federal law she can he can be with me.?
>>
>> The receptionist called over another who took over. She asked a few operative questions about whether she had advance paperwork for the procedure. As she did the room temperature dropped. She followed that that Kira could not accompany her into an exam room, ?because they are sterile.? This was curious, because we had recently visited a physician in a clinic up in Portland, where were inquiring as well in case the procedure might be done up there. They had no issue in the lobby, or in the exam room.
>>
>> In this case, when Andrea said in response that there should not be an issue and that by law she could accompany her in an exam room, (even if not specifically inside a surgical suite which might be understandable), frost formed on this receptionist and on the walls.
>>
>> My wife said to me that she was uncomfortable, picked up the paperwork, and we left. Too bad, because this physician was a wonderful man and a great doctor who once saved her life with emergency surgery. We knew that since his career change to skin, he?d probably be one of the best locally.
>>
>> We would like to do him the courtesy of writing an informational letter so that he learns what happened and has a chance to get his staff educated. My wife said that she is considering filing a complaint with DOJ. But before that, we should simply get clear information as it applies to this specific circumstance. Can one of you who is clear on ADA with this specific type situation inform us?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
>>
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>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:35:59 -0600
> From: <cindyray at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
> Message-ID: <03a101d498cd$86daa260$948fe720$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> It is a burden of the people in charge to ask if the dog is a service dog. If your answer is yes, then the next question is what service does the dog perform. I hope you will all read Marion's message as it goes into considerable detail about this issue.
> Thank you.
> Cindy Lou Ray
> cindyray at gmail.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Danielle Sykora via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 7:32 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Danielle Sykora <dsykora29 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>
> Service dogs are not allowed in sterile environments; however, they must be truly sterile. Service dogs are not permitted in the OR or typically burn units where mask/gloves/other procedures are necessary. Exam rooms are definitely not sterile environments. Generally, if you can walk in with your normal clothes and shoes, your service dog can accompany you.
> I believe Peter uses a guide dog and his wife uses a non-guiding service dog, correct me if I?m wrong. Most service dogs do not wear guide harnesses, and it is unfair to say that a dog must wear a guide harness or discrimination is acceptable.
> Danielle, Thai, and Jackie
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Dec 20, 2018, at 7:19 PM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Peter:
>>
>> It is not uncommon to have medical facilities say a dog cannot accompany a patient into a sterile area. This is not discrimination but patient safety. I recently had this situation. My doctor and staff are all aware that I am blind and that Eva is a guide dog. However, the medical proceedure was being done in a sterile area therefore Eva could not accompany me. I was asked if anyone was with me that could watch my dog. When I informed them I was alone several staff members eagerly offered to watch her while I was in the sterile area. Second, the dog is your guide dog, not your wife's. Therefore right of access with a service dog laws would not cover her wanting your dog with her. Finally you did not say your dog was in a standard guide dog harness. If she is not in harness, how is anyone supposed to know she is a trained guide dog. Anyone can buy service dog gear online so the general public and any medical professionals cannot tell the difference. This is why I and many others feel a government issued ID card for professionally trained guide and service dogs is what should be done. I am tired of all the fake service dogs making my life difficult. I know in your case the dog is necessary but it is important for you to be sure she can be identified as a guide dog not a pet.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Retina via NAGDU
>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 6:32 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Retina
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> Will the legally informed of you please advise me?
>>
>> My wife and I just went into an MD Aesthetician?s office to inquire about a procedure. I had Metukah, and she had here service dog Kira. On entering, the receptionist, instead of ?hello,? said to us at the door, ?Sorry, the dog will have to go outside?. Andrea said, ?She?s a service dog; by federal law she can he can be with me.?
>>
>> The receptionist called over another who took over. She asked a few operative questions about whether she had advance paperwork for the procedure. As she did the room temperature dropped. She followed that that Kira could not accompany her into an exam room, ?because they are sterile.? This was curious, because we had recently visited a physician in a clinic up in Portland, where were inquiring as well in case the procedure might be done up there. They had no issue in the lobby, or in the exam room.
>>
>> In this case, when Andrea said in response that there should not be an issue and that by law she could accompany her in an exam room, (even if not specifically inside a surgical suite which might be understandable), frost formed on this receptionist and on the walls.
>>
>> My wife said to me that she was uncomfortable, picked up the paperwork, and we left. Too bad, because this physician was a wonderful man and a great doctor who once saved her life with emergency surgery. We knew that since his career change to skin, he?d probably be one of the best locally.
>>
>> We would like to do him the courtesy of writing an informational letter so that he learns what happened and has a chance to get his staff educated. My wife said that she is considering filing a complaint with DOJ. But before that, we should simply get clear information as it applies to this specific circumstance. Can one of you who is clear on ADA with this specific type situation inform us?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 22:26:22 -0500
> From: Marianne Denning <marianne at denningweb.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Retina <pwolf1 at wolfskills.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
> Message-ID: <A7BAB607-391D-4D3A-9772-B0BA75E806B4 at denningweb.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> I had a similar situation. I was going to have blood drawn and the phlebotomist said it was a sterile environment and the dog could not be with me. This is wrong because it is not a sterile environment in that room. After the procedure I contacted the manager of the office and told her what happened. She said this person was wrong in what she did and it would be handled.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Dec 20, 2018, at 6:32 PM, Retina via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> Will the legally informed of you please advise me?
>>
>> My wife and I just went into an MD Aesthetician?s office to inquire about a procedure. I had Metukah, and she had here service dog Kira. On entering, the receptionist, instead of ?hello,? said to us at the door, ?Sorry, the dog will have to go outside?. Andrea said, ?She?s a service dog; by federal law she can he can be with me.?
>>
>> The receptionist called over another who took over. She asked a few operative questions about whether she had advance paperwork for the procedure. As she did the room temperature dropped. She followed that that Kira could not accompany her into an exam room, ?because they are sterile.? This was curious, because we had recently visited a physician in a clinic up in Portland, where were inquiring as well in case the procedure might be done up there. They had no issue in the lobby, or in the exam room.
>>
>> In this case, when Andrea said in response that there should not be an issue and that by law she could accompany her in an exam room, (even if not specifically inside a surgical suite which might be understandable), frost formed on this receptionist and on the walls.
>>
>> My wife said to me that she was uncomfortable, picked up the paperwork, and we left. Too bad, because this physician was a wonderful man and a great doctor who once saved her life with emergency surgery. We knew that since his career change to skin, he?d probably be one of the best locally.
>>
>> We would like to do him the courtesy of writing an informational letter so that he learns what happened and has a chance to get his staff educated. My wife said that she is considering filing a complaint with DOJ. But before that, we should simply get clear information as it applies to this specific circumstance. Can one of you who is clear on ADA with this specific type situation inform us?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/marianne%40denningweb.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 06:40:11 -0500
> From: Melissa Allman <MAllman at seeingeye.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
> Message-ID: <68528A425613C841AF38DE1B877F19630220757D2164 at TSEMTEXCH01>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi all. Marion does raise some very important points here. Below is a link to some information on our web site about the rights of guide dog handlers in health care facilities.
>
> http://www.seeingeye.org/knowledge-center/rights--legal-information/guide-dogs-in-hospitals.html
>
> One of the items referenced there is a self-evaluation checklist that health care providers can use to see if they are compliant with the ADA. It can be found at:
> http://www.afb.org/info/programs-and-services/public-policy-center/civil-rights/advocacy-resources/ada-checklist-health-care-facilities-and-service-providers/12345
>
> I hope this helps and it is unfortunate that guide dog handlers continue to have these experiences.
>
>
> Melissa R. Allman
> Senior Specialist, Advocacy and Government Relations
> The Seeing Eye, Inc.
> P.O. Box 375, Morristown, NJ?07963-0375 (mail)
> 10 Washington Valley Road, Morristown, NJ?07960-3412 (deliveries)
> 973-539-4425 ext. 1724,???? Fax:? 973-525-1081 mallman at SeeingEye.org??
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:36 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: cindyray at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>
> It is a burden of the people in charge to ask if the dog is a service dog. If your answer is yes, then the next question is what service does the dog perform. I hope you will all read Marion's message as it goes into considerable detail about this issue.
> Thank you.
> Cindy Lou Ray
> cindyray at gmail.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Danielle Sykora via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 7:32 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Danielle Sykora <dsykora29 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>
> Service dogs are not allowed in sterile environments; however, they must be truly sterile. Service dogs are not permitted in the OR or typically burn units where mask/gloves/other procedures are necessary. Exam rooms are definitely not sterile environments. Generally, if you can walk in with your normal clothes and shoes, your service dog can accompany you.
> I believe Peter uses a guide dog and his wife uses a non-guiding service dog, correct me if I?m wrong. Most service dogs do not wear guide harnesses, and it is unfair to say that a dog must wear a guide harness or discrimination is acceptable.
> Danielle, Thai, and Jackie
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Dec 20, 2018, at 7:19 PM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Peter:
>>
>> It is not uncommon to have medical facilities say a dog cannot accompany a patient into a sterile area. This is not discrimination but patient safety. I recently had this situation. My doctor and staff are all aware that I am blind and that Eva is a guide dog. However, the medical proceedure was being done in a sterile area therefore Eva could not accompany me. I was asked if anyone was with me that could watch my dog. When I informed them I was alone several staff members eagerly offered to watch her while I was in the sterile area. Second, the dog is your guide dog, not your wife's. Therefore right of access with a service dog laws would not cover her wanting your dog with her. Finally you did not say your dog was in a standard guide dog harness. If she is not in harness, how is anyone supposed to know she is a trained guide dog. Anyone can buy service dog gear online so the general public and any medical professionals cannot tell the difference. This is why I and many others feel a government issued ID card for professionally trained guide and service dogs is what should be done. I am tired of all the fake service dogs making my life difficult. I know in your case the dog is necessary but it is important for you to be sure she can be identified as a guide dog not a pet.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Retina via NAGDU
>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 6:32 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Retina
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Refused at medical office
>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> Will the legally informed of you please advise me?
>>
>> My wife and I just went into an MD Aesthetician?s office to inquire about a procedure. I had Metukah, and she had here service dog Kira. On entering, the receptionist, instead of ?hello,? said to us at the door, ?Sorry, the dog will have to go outside?. Andrea said, ?She?s a service dog; by federal law she can he can be with me.?
>>
>> The receptionist called over another who took over. She asked a few operative questions about whether she had advance paperwork for the procedure. As she did the room temperature dropped. She followed that that Kira could not accompany her into an exam room, ?because they are sterile.? This was curious, because we had recently visited a physician in a clinic up in Portland, where were inquiring as well in case the procedure might be done up there. They had no issue in the lobby, or in the exam room.
>>
>> In this case, when Andrea said in response that there should not be an issue and that by law she could accompany her in an exam room, (even if not specifically inside a surgical suite which might be understandable), frost formed on this receptionist and on the walls.
>>
>> My wife said to me that she was uncomfortable, picked up the paperwork, and we left. Too bad, because this physician was a wonderful man and a great doctor who once saved her life with emergency surgery. We knew that since his career change to skin, he?d probably be one of the best locally.
>>
>> We would like to do him the courtesy of writing an informational letter so that he learns what happened and has a chance to get his staff educated. My wife said that she is considering filing a complaint with DOJ. But before that, we should simply get clear information as it applies to this specific circumstance. Can one of you who is clear on ADA with this specific type situation inform us?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mallman%40seeingeye.org
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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> ------------------------------
>
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