[NAGDU] fines for bad behavior

[Yiska]

As a person with invisible disabilities it bothers me the statement about
the dog obviously being a service dog. Just stating another side.
Yiska

On Feb 12, 2018 08:00, "Julie Johnson via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:

> More pondering...I think there is a distinct and pervasive avoidance of
> prosecuting disabled people for anything.   I think if there were laws that
> specifically stated that service dog behavior, and emotional support animal
> behavior when applicable, is the legal responsibility of the handler, this
> would go a long way to assist law enforcement and even businesses in doing
> what needs done.  I do agree that there are already laws, such as the ADA
> and animal control laws that make an effort at this, but they are not
> strongly enough stated.  disabled folks must behave, and by extension their
> service dogs must behave, in a manner applicable to all.
>
> Tracy asked what if a dog is behaving just a bit inappropriately, but not
> seriously so, as in flopping out into the aisle.  I'd like to think that
> this could be dealt with just like anything else flopped into the aisle,
> like a coat or purse.  The obvious thing to me is that the employee would
> ask that you move the dog.  this does happen for sure, but not enough.
> Again, there is this reluctance to talk to disabled people or hold us to
> the same standards as others. There is a fear of being sued or made to look
> like an uncaring person in the media.
>
> If we want equal access we have to claim equal responsibility.  Perhaps my
> suggestion can't accomplish this.  I don't know, but until we are viewed as
> equally responsible for our behavior, I think things are going to get worse.
>
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_
> Departments?storeid=1916046>
> -----Original Message----- From: Cindy Ray via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:25 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: Cindy Ray
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>
>
> Do animal control laws cover on airplanes when the dog bites someone? I
> think this is a pervasive enough problem that maybe laws to this effect do
> need to be passed. There are animal control laws, but clearly they are not
> working in this regard.
> Cindy Lou Ray
> cindyray at gmail.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:04 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <
> nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>
> I agree with Rebecca that current laws already cover biting.  But suppose
> the bad behavior doesn't rise to that level?  Suppose the dog is barking
> its head off, or grabbing food off tables, or has been allowed to sprawl in
> the aisle, making it hard for people to move around it? What then?
> Tracy
>
> Why not let the animal control laws sort it out. For example if a
>> person's dog bites someone, there are processes in place to deal with
>> it.
>> Any reason that couldn't work?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie
>> Johnson via NAGDU
>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:03 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>
>> I was sort of pondering how exactly a law like this could be enforced.
>> It does put quite a lot onto the responding police officer.
>>
>> I've been thinking a lot about the problems with ill behaved dogs and
>> what to do about it.  I am completely in favor of behavior needing to
>> be the standard and helping businesses to understand they can disallow
>> people with ill behaved dogs.
>>
>> This is just an idea and admittedly I haven't thought through all the
>> pros and cons, but I'm tossing it out as food for thought, not an
>> absolute this is what needs done.  I believe in careful thought before
>> committing to an idea and community careful thought before committing
>> to an action that would affect a large group of people.
>>
>> What if there were laws that made the person directly responsible for
>> the actions of their dog?  Some laws already exist of this nature, but
>> I do not believe they are strong enough or are worded in the way I am
>> thinking.
>>  I am suggesting that if a person's service or emotional support dog
>> bites someone, then the person be charged with assault in the same way
>> the person would be charged if they had directly done the biting.
>> Legally, a service dog is considered to be a medical appliance.  So my
>> logic is that if I took my white cane and whacked a person, that would
>> be assault.  I'm viewing lack of control or inappropriateness on the
>> part of the dog to be directly the handler's legal responsibility.
>>
>> Obviously this idea needs a lot of work.  I get that, but perhaps it
>> is a direction we can explore.  Some states have laws that make it a
>> criminal offense for a person or their pet dog to interfere with a
>> service dog team.
>> I'm thinking the opposite also needs to be true.  A disabled person
>> and their service dog needs to not interfere criminally with the public.
>>
>> Please help me think through this idea more fully.  Perhaps it's the
>> dumbest thing ever.  That's okay.  I think it's at least worth some
>> discussion though.
>> Julie
>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?stor
>> eid=1916046>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU President via NAGDU
>> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:43 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: NAGDU President
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> The National Asssociation of Guide Dog Users does not have an official
>> position on this issue. My personal opinion is that these laws, though
>> possibly a deterrent to those who would misrepresent their pets as
>> service animals to gain access to public places where pets are
>> generally not allowed, are unenforceable. The Americans with
>> Disabilities act prohibits public entities and private entities that
>> provide public accommodations from making specific inquiries about the
>> nature or extent of a person’s disability or asking for
>> identification or other documentation that an animal has been trained.
>> This means that a law enforcement officer, as an agent of a public
>> entity, may not make such inquiries beyond the two allowed by the
>> implementing regulations:1. Is this a service animal required because
>> of a disability? and 2. what task or work has the animal been trained to
>> perform?
>>
>> This raises the question of how it will be determined a person is
>> misrepresenting themselves as a person with a disability and the dog
>> as a service animal? I perceive the only way this sort of measure
>> might be enforced would be if a person were denied access with their
>> animal, file a charge against the establishment, and when the court
>> asked for proof the individual had standing to pursue the charges,
>> found that there was no evidence the dog had been trained. In other
>> words, I think it is highly unlikely this measure will ever be enforced.
>>
>> These things being said, I believe a better approach is to educate
>> businesses as to their rights to exclude dogs that are not under
>> control and what, exactly the definition and application of “direct
>> threat† means  under the ADA and state law.
>>
>> I would be open to hearing your thoughts and suggestions on this issue.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>>
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National
>> Federation of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is
>> not what holds you back.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie
>> Johnson via NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 1:01 PM
>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
>> Cc: Julie Johnson
>> Subject: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>
>> Washington House Approves Fines For People Who Lie About Non-Trained
>> Service Animals By Doug Nadvornick • Feb 8, 2018
>> http://spokanepublicradio.org/post/washington-house-approves-fines-peo
>> ple-who-lie-about-non-trained-service-animals
>>
>> People with trained service animals helped write a bill in the
>> Washington legislature that would fine owners who fraudulently claim
>> their animals are trained.
>> Credit Spokane Cares
>> The Washington House has taken a step toward punishing people who
>> misrepresent their animals as service animals.
>>
>> The chamber on Thursday approved a bill that gives law enforcement
>> officers the right to question animal owners if it’s not obvious the
>> person has a disability. If it’s determined the owner is lying, the
>> officer can write a ticket that carries a fine of up to $500.
>>
>> Supporters say many people take advantage of the federal law that
>> allows trained service animals to accompany their owners anywhere.
>>
>> “When we start having issues in our grocery stores, our libraries,
>> our restaurants, where people are bringing in not only service dogs
>> that are not service dogs, but also other animals, animals such as a
>> snake or a cat and trying to misrepresent them as service animals,
>> then we have trouble for citizens and for especially those in the
>> disabled community who support this bill,† said Rep. Joan McBride
>> (D-Kirkland).
>>
>> Rep. Vincent Buys (R-Lynden) says people with trained service animals
>> helped to craft the bill.
>>
>> “Having non-trained service animals or emotional service animals,
>> emotional support animals, it is very distracting and I think it does
>> a disservice to those citizens that need that support," Buys said.
>>
>> The vote in the House was unanimous. The bill now moves to the Senate.
>>
>>
>>
>> Julie
>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?stor
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