[NAGDU] fines for bad behavior

Cindy Ray cindyray at gmail.com
Mon Feb 12 19:17:12 UTC 2018 

There are two questions that can be asked. Is this a service animal? What service has it been trained to perform. Your disability is not invisible if you can answer those questions, and those can be asked, or maybe I don't quite understand where you are coming from.
Cindy Lou Ray
cindyray at gmail.com


-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Yiska via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 9:21 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Yiska <ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior

As a person with invisible disabilities it bothers me the statement about the dog obviously being a service dog. Just stating another side.
Yiska

On Feb 12, 2018 08:00, "Julie Johnson via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:

> More pondering...I think there is a distinct and pervasive avoidance of
> prosecuting disabled people for anything.   I think if there were laws that
> specifically stated that service dog behavior, and emotional support 
> animal behavior when applicable, is the legal responsibility of the 
> handler, this would go a long way to assist law enforcement and even 
> businesses in doing what needs done.  I do agree that there are 
> already laws, such as the ADA and animal control laws that make an 
> effort at this, but they are not strongly enough stated.  disabled 
> folks must behave, and by extension their service dogs must behave, in a manner applicable to all.
>
> Tracy asked what if a dog is behaving just a bit inappropriately, but 
> not seriously so, as in flopping out into the aisle.  I'd like to 
> think that this could be dealt with just like anything else flopped 
> into the aisle, like a coat or purse.  The obvious thing to me is that 
> the employee would ask that you move the dog.  this does happen for sure, but not enough.
> Again, there is this reluctance to talk to disabled people or hold us 
> to the same standards as others. There is a fear of being sued or made 
> to look like an uncaring person in the media.
>
> If we want equal access we have to claim equal responsibility.  
> Perhaps my suggestion can't accomplish this.  I don't know, but until 
> we are viewed as equally responsible for our behavior, I think things are going to get worse.
>
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com 
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall 
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_
> Departments?storeid=1916046>
> -----Original Message----- From: Cindy Ray via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:25 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: Cindy Ray
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>
>
> Do animal control laws cover on airplanes when the dog bites someone? 
> I think this is a pervasive enough problem that maybe laws to this 
> effect do need to be passed. There are animal control laws, but 
> clearly they are not working in this regard.
> Cindy Lou Ray
> cindyray at gmail.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy 
> Carcione via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:04 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users < 
> nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>
> I agree with Rebecca that current laws already cover biting.  But 
> suppose the bad behavior doesn't rise to that level?  Suppose the dog 
> is barking its head off, or grabbing food off tables, or has been 
> allowed to sprawl in the aisle, making it hard for people to move around it? What then?
> Tracy
>
> Why not let the animal control laws sort it out. For example if a
>> person's dog bites someone, there are processes in place to deal with 
>> it.
>> Any reason that couldn't work?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie 
>> Johnson via NAGDU
>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:03 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>
>> I was sort of pondering how exactly a law like this could be enforced.
>> It does put quite a lot onto the responding police officer.
>>
>> I've been thinking a lot about the problems with ill behaved dogs and 
>> what to do about it.  I am completely in favor of behavior needing to 
>> be the standard and helping businesses to understand they can 
>> disallow people with ill behaved dogs.
>>
>> This is just an idea and admittedly I haven't thought through all the 
>> pros and cons, but I'm tossing it out as food for thought, not an 
>> absolute this is what needs done.  I believe in careful thought 
>> before committing to an idea and community careful thought before 
>> committing to an action that would affect a large group of people.
>>
>> What if there were laws that made the person directly responsible for 
>> the actions of their dog?  Some laws already exist of this nature, 
>> but I do not believe they are strong enough or are worded in the way 
>> I am thinking.
>>  I am suggesting that if a person's service or emotional support dog 
>> bites someone, then the person be charged with assault in the same 
>> way the person would be charged if they had directly done the biting.
>> Legally, a service dog is considered to be a medical appliance.  So 
>> my logic is that if I took my white cane and whacked a person, that 
>> would be assault.  I'm viewing lack of control or inappropriateness 
>> on the part of the dog to be directly the handler's legal responsibility.
>>
>> Obviously this idea needs a lot of work.  I get that, but perhaps it 
>> is a direction we can explore.  Some states have laws that make it a 
>> criminal offense for a person or their pet dog to interfere with a 
>> service dog team.
>> I'm thinking the opposite also needs to be true.  A disabled person 
>> and their service dog needs to not interfere criminally with the public.
>>
>> Please help me think through this idea more fully.  Perhaps it's the 
>> dumbest thing ever.  That's okay.  I think it's at least worth some 
>> discussion though.
>> Julie
>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com 
>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall 
>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?sto
>> r
>> eid=1916046>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU President via NAGDU
>> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:43 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: NAGDU President
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> The National Asssociation of Guide Dog Users does not have an 
>> official position on this issue. My personal opinion is that these 
>> laws, though possibly a deterrent to those who would misrepresent 
>> their pets as service animals to gain access to public places where 
>> pets are generally not allowed, are unenforceable. The Americans with 
>> Disabilities act prohibits public entities and private entities that 
>> provide public accommodations from making specific inquiries about 
>> the nature or extent of a person’s disability or asking for 
>> identification or other documentation that an animal has been trained.
>> This means that a law enforcement officer, as an agent of a public 
>> entity, may not make such inquiries beyond the two allowed by the 
>> implementing regulations:1. Is this a service animal required because 
>> of a disability? and 2. what task or work has the animal been trained 
>> to perform?
>>
>> This raises the question of how it will be determined a person is 
>> misrepresenting themselves as a person with a disability and the dog 
>> as a service animal? I perceive the only way this sort of measure 
>> might be enforced would be if a person were denied access with their 
>> animal, file a charge against the establishment, and when the court 
>> asked for proof the individual had standing to pursue the charges, 
>> found that there was no evidence the dog had been trained. In other 
>> words, I think it is highly unlikely this measure will ever be enforced.
>>
>> These things being said, I believe a better approach is to educate 
>> businesses as to their rights to exclude dogs that are not under 
>> control and what, exactly the definition and application of “direct 
>> threat† means  under the ADA and state law.
>>
>> I would be open to hearing your thoughts and suggestions on this issue.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>>
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National 
>> Federation of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the 
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise 
>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind 
>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is 
>> not what holds you back.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie 
>> Johnson via NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 1:01 PM
>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
>> Cc: Julie Johnson
>> Subject: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>
>> Washington House Approves Fines For People Who Lie About Non-Trained 
>> Service Animals By Doug Nadvornick • Feb 8, 2018 
>> http://spokanepublicradio.org/post/washington-house-approves-fines-pe
>> o ple-who-lie-about-non-trained-service-animals
>>
>> People with trained service animals helped write a bill in the 
>> Washington legislature that would fine owners who fraudulently claim 
>> their animals are trained.
>> Credit Spokane Cares
>> The Washington House has taken a step toward punishing people who 
>> misrepresent their animals as service animals.
>>
>> The chamber on Thursday approved a bill that gives law enforcement 
>> officers the right to question animal owners if it’s not obvious 
>> the person has a disability. If it’s determined the owner is lying, 
>> the officer can write a ticket that carries a fine of up to $500.
>>
>> Supporters say many people take advantage of the federal law that 
>> allows trained service animals to accompany their owners anywhere.
>>
>> “When we start having issues in our grocery stores, our libraries, 
>> our restaurants, where people are bringing in not only service dogs 
>> that are not service dogs, but also other animals, animals such as a 
>> snake or a cat and trying to misrepresent them as service animals, 
>> then we have trouble for citizens and for especially those in the 
>> disabled community who support this bill,† said Rep. Joan McBride 
>> (D-Kirkland).
>>
>> Rep. Vincent Buys (R-Lynden) says people with trained service animals 
>> helped to craft the bill.
>>
>> “Having non-trained service animals or emotional service animals, 
>> emotional support animals, it is very distracting and I think it does 
>> a disservice to those citizens that need that support," Buys said.
>>
>> The vote in the House was unanimous. The bill now moves to the Senate.
>>
>>
>>
>> Julie
>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com 
>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall 
>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?sto
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