[NAGDU] fines for bad behavior

Tami Jarvis tami at poodlemutt.com
Mon Feb 12 17:25:24 UTC 2018 

For all the behaviors you mention, the business may lawfully have the 
handler remove the dog as things stand now, if the handler does not take 
effective action to control the dog. If the business chooses instead to 
allow the behavior to continue, then haven't they sort of agreed to 
allow it in their establishment? When someone brings in a non-service 
dog, claiming that it is one, or when a disabled handler brings in a 
fully trained service dog and doesn't keep it on the straight and 
narrow, then it is the business whose rights are being violated. The 
business also has the right to allow that sort of thing to go on. If 
they choose to allow it, then the results are also their responsibility. 
If they choose to loose customers in favor of barking, sprawling dogs, 
then that's up to them. If businesses can't use the laws that already 
protect their rights, why waste paper on new laws? And so on.

If the handler refuses to remove his rotten mutt and the law does get 
involved somehow, then if it is discovered in that process that the 
handler is not disabled and/or the dog is not task trained, penalties 
would be a useful thing, I think. Or maybe having the handler pay the 
business's legal fees if it turns out there was no discrimination? 
Something like that. I think in some places that does happen with 
frivolous lawsuits, but I could be wrong.

At this point, I'm pretty frustrated by all the whining and 
hand-wringing from business owners who haven't figured out that they 
have a responsibility to know what the law is and who are too timid to 
exercise their rights, which are implicit in that law. I mean, oooh! 
Someone might sue! Oh, no! They would then have to give some extra 
training to their employees. Which they should have done in the first 
place. Nowadays, social media could cost them more, but if they can show 
video of the situation that caused them to have the dog removed, that 
could be turned around.

It's not all that simple, of course, and so the discussion does go on 
and on. Someday, someone will come up with a solution that actually 
makes sense and works to address the problem without creating more havoc 
for service dog users, most especially for little old me. I tell myself 
that, anyway. /lol/

Tami

On 02/12/2018 06:04 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU wrote:
> I agree with Rebecca that current laws already cover biting.  But suppose
> the bad behavior doesn't rise to that level?  Suppose the dog is barking
> its head off, or grabbing food off tables, or has been allowed to sprawl
> in the aisle, making it hard for people to move around it? What then?
> Tracy
> 
>> 				Why not let the animal control laws sort it out. For example if a
>> person's dog bites someone, there are processes in place to deal with
>> it.
>> Any reason that couldn't work?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie Johnson
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:03 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>
>> I was sort of pondering how exactly a law like this could be enforced.  It
>> does put quite a lot onto the responding police officer.
>>
>> I've been thinking a lot about the problems with ill behaved dogs and what
>> to do about it.  I am completely in favor of behavior needing to be the
>> standard and helping businesses to understand they can disallow people
>> with ill behaved dogs.
>>
>> This is just an idea and admittedly I haven't thought through all the pros
>> and cons, but I'm tossing it out as food for thought, not an absolute this
>> is what needs done.  I believe in careful thought before committing to an
>> idea and community careful thought before committing to an action that
>> would affect a large group of people.
>>
>> What if there were laws that made the person directly responsible for the
>> actions of their dog?  Some laws already exist of this nature, but I do
>> not believe they are strong enough or are worded in the way I am thinking.
>>   I am suggesting that if a person's service or emotional support dog bites
>> someone, then the person be charged with assault in the same way the
>> person would be charged if they had directly done the biting.  Legally, a
>> service dog is considered to be a medical appliance.  So my logic is that
>> if I took my white cane and whacked a person, that would be assault.  I'm
>> viewing lack of control or inappropriateness on the part of the dog to be
>> directly the handler's legal responsibility.
>>
>> Obviously this idea needs a lot of work.  I get that, but perhaps it is a
>> direction we can explore.  Some states have laws that make it a criminal
>> offense for a person or their pet dog to interfere with a service dog
>> team.
>> I'm thinking the opposite also needs to be true.  A disabled person and
>> their service dog needs to not interfere criminally with the public.
>>
>> Please help me think through this idea more fully.  Perhaps it's the
>> dumbest thing ever.  That's okay.  I think it's at least worth some
>> discussion though.
>> Julie
>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=1916046>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU President via NAGDU
>> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:43 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: NAGDU President
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> The National Asssociation of Guide Dog Users does not have an official
>> position on this issue. My personal opinion is that these laws, though
>> possibly a deterrent to those who would misrepresent their pets as service
>> animals to gain access to public places where pets are generally not
>> allowed, are unenforceable. The Americans with Disabilities act prohibits
>> public entities and private entities that provide public accommodations
>> from making specific inquiries about the nature or extent of a person’s
>> disability or asking for identification or other documentation that an
>> animal has been trained. This means that a law enforcement officer, as an
>> agent of a public entity, may not make such inquiries beyond the two
>> allowed by the implementing regulations:1. Is this a service animal
>> required because of a disability? and 2. what task or work has the animal
>> been trained to perform?
>>
>> This raises the question of how it will be determined a person is
>> misrepresenting themselves as a person with a disability and the dog as a
>> service animal? I perceive the only way this sort of measure might be
>> enforced would be if a person were denied access with their animal, file a
>> charge against the establishment, and when the court asked for proof the
>> individual had standing to pursue the charges, found that there was no
>> evidence the dog had been trained. In other words, I think it is highly
>> unlikely this measure will ever be enforced.
>>
>> These things being said, I believe a better approach is to educate
>> businesses as to their rights to exclude dogs that are not under control
>> and what, exactly the definition and application of “direct threat”
>> means  under the ADA and state law.
>>
>> I would be open to hearing your thoughts and suggestions on this issue.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>>
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation
>> of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not
>> what holds you back.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie Johnson
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 1:01 PM
>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
>> Cc: Julie Johnson
>> Subject: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>
>> Washington House Approves Fines For People Who Lie About Non-Trained
>> Service Animals By Doug Nadvornick • Feb 8, 2018
>> http://spokanepublicradio.org/post/washington-house-approves-fines-people-who-lie-about-non-trained-service-animals
>>
>> People with trained service animals helped write a bill in the Washington
>> legislature that would fine owners who fraudulently claim their animals
>> are trained.
>> Credit Spokane Cares
>> The Washington House has taken a step toward punishing people who
>> misrepresent their animals as service animals.
>>
>> The chamber on Thursday approved a bill that gives law enforcement
>> officers the right to question animal owners if it’s not obvious the
>> person has a disability. If it’s determined the owner is lying, the
>> officer can write a ticket that carries a fine of up to $500.
>>
>> Supporters say many people take advantage of the federal law that allows
>> trained service animals to accompany their owners anywhere.
>>
>> “When we start having issues in our grocery stores, our libraries, our
>> restaurants, where people are bringing in not only service dogs that are
>> not service dogs, but also other animals, animals such as a snake or a cat
>> and trying to misrepresent them as service animals, then we have trouble
>> for citizens and for especially those in the disabled community who
>> support this bill,” said Rep. Joan McBride (D-Kirkland).
>>
>> Rep. Vincent Buys (R-Lynden) says people with trained service animals
>> helped to craft the bill.
>>
>> “Having non-trained service animals or emotional service animals,
>> emotional support animals, it is very distracting and I think it does a
>> disservice to those citizens that need that support," Buys said.
>>
>> The vote in the House was unanimous. The bill now moves to the Senate.
>>
>>
>>
>> Julie
>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=1916046>
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