[NAGDU] fines for bad behavior

Mon Feb 12 19:15:56 UTC 2018

I like your ideas, Julie, but I wonder if there is a way to have the current laws restated so they are stronger. No law is going to make people talk to disabled people though. I am not sure how we will accomplish this.
Cindy Lou Ray
cindyray at gmail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:59 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior

More pondering...I think there is a distinct and pervasive avoidance of 
prosecuting disabled people for anything.   I think if there were laws that 
specifically stated that service dog behavior, and emotional support animal behavior when applicable, is the legal responsibility of the handler, this would go a long way to assist law enforcement and even businesses in doing what needs done.  I do agree that there are already laws, such as the ADA and animal control laws that make an effort at this, but they are not strongly enough stated.  disabled folks must behave, and by extension their service dogs must behave, in a manner applicable to all.

Tracy asked what if a dog is behaving just a bit inappropriately, but not seriously so, as in flopping out into the aisle.  I'd like to think that this could be dealt with just like anything else flopped into the aisle, like a coat or purse.  The obvious thing to me is that the employee would ask that you move the dog.  this does happen for sure, but not enough. 
Again, there is this reluctance to talk to disabled people or hold us to the same standards as others. There is a fear of being sued or made to look like an uncaring person in the media.

If we want equal access we have to claim equal responsibility.  Perhaps my suggestion can't accomplish this.  I don't know, but until we are viewed as equally responsible for our behavior, I think things are going to get worse.

Julie
On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=1916046>
-----Original Message-----
From: Cindy Ray via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:25 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Cindy Ray
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior

Do animal control laws cover on airplanes when the dog bites someone? I 
think this is a pervasive enough problem that maybe laws to this effect do 
need to be passed. There are animal control laws, but clearly they are not 
working in this regard.
Cindy Lou Ray
cindyray at gmail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione 
via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:04 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior

I agree with Rebecca that current laws already cover biting.  But suppose 
the bad behavior doesn't rise to that level?  Suppose the dog is barking its 
head off, or grabbing food off tables, or has been allowed to sprawl in the 
aisle, making it hard for people to move around it? What then?
Tracy

> Why not let the animal control laws sort it out. For example if a
> person's dog bites someone, there are processes in place to deal with
> it.
> Any reason that couldn't work?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie
> Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:03 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>
> I was sort of pondering how exactly a law like this could be enforced.
> It does put quite a lot onto the responding police officer.
>
> I've been thinking a lot about the problems with ill behaved dogs and
> what to do about it.  I am completely in favor of behavior needing to
> be the standard and helping businesses to understand they can disallow
> people with ill behaved dogs.
>
> This is just an idea and admittedly I haven't thought through all the
> pros and cons, but I'm tossing it out as food for thought, not an
> absolute this is what needs done.  I believe in careful thought before
> committing to an idea and community careful thought before committing
> to an action that would affect a large group of people.
>
> What if there were laws that made the person directly responsible for
> the actions of their dog?  Some laws already exist of this nature, but
> I do not believe they are strong enough or are worded in the way I am 
> thinking.
>  I am suggesting that if a person's service or emotional support dog
> bites someone, then the person be charged with assault in the same way
> the person would be charged if they had directly done the biting.
> Legally, a service dog is considered to be a medical appliance.  So my
> logic is that if I took my white cane and whacked a person, that would
> be assault.  I'm viewing lack of control or inappropriateness on the
> part of the dog to be directly the handler's legal responsibility.
>
> Obviously this idea needs a lot of work.  I get that, but perhaps it
> is a direction we can explore.  Some states have laws that make it a
> criminal offense for a person or their pet dog to interfere with a
> service dog team.
> I'm thinking the opposite also needs to be true.  A disabled person
> and their service dog needs to not interfere criminally with the public.
>
> Please help me think through this idea more fully.  Perhaps it's the
> dumbest thing ever.  That's okay.  I think it's at least worth some
> discussion though.
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?stor
> eid=1916046>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU President via NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:43 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: NAGDU President
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>
> Dear All,
>
> The National Asssociation of Guide Dog Users does not have an official
> position on this issue. My personal opinion is that these laws, though
> possibly a deterrent to those who would misrepresent their pets as
> service animals to gain access to public places where pets are
> generally not allowed, are unenforceable. The Americans with
> Disabilities act prohibits public entities and private entities that
> provide public accommodations from making specific inquiries about the
> nature or extent of a personâ€™s disability or asking for
> identification or other documentation that an animal has been trained.
> This means that a law enforcement officer, as an agent of a public
> entity, may not make such inquiries beyond the two allowed by the
> implementing regulations:1. Is this a service animal required because
> of a disability? and 2. what task or work has the animal been trained to 
> perform?
>
> This raises the question of how it will be determined a person is
> misrepresenting themselves as a person with a disability and the dog
> as a service animal? I perceive the only way this sort of measure
> might be enforced would be if a person were denied access with their
> animal, file a charge against the establishment, and when the court
> asked for proof the individual had standing to pursue the charges,
> found that there was no evidence the dog had been trained. In other
> words, I think it is highly unlikely this measure will ever be enforced.
>
> These things being said, I believe a better approach is to educate
> businesses as to their rights to exclude dogs that are not under
> control and what, exactly the definition and application of â€œdirect
> threatâ€ means  under the ADA and state law.
>
> I would be open to hearing your thoughts and suggestions on this issue.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National
> Federation of the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG
>
>
> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is
> not what holds you back.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie
> Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 1:01 PM
> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
> Cc: Julie Johnson
> Subject: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>
> Washington House Approves Fines For People Who Lie About Non-Trained
> Service Animals By Doug Nadvornick â€¢ Feb 8, 2018
> http://spokanepublicradio.org/post/washington-house-approves-fines-peo
> ple-who-lie-about-non-trained-service-animals
>
> People with trained service animals helped write a bill in the
> Washington legislature that would fine owners who fraudulently claim
> their animals are trained.
> Credit Spokane Cares
> The Washington House has taken a step toward punishing people who
> misrepresent their animals as service animals.
>
> The chamber on Thursday approved a bill that gives law enforcement
> officers the right to question animal owners if itâ€™s not obvious the
> person has a disability. If itâ€™s determined the owner is lying, the
> officer can write a ticket that carries a fine of up to $500.
>
> Supporters say many people take advantage of the federal law that
> allows trained service animals to accompany their owners anywhere.
>
> â€œWhen we start having issues in our grocery stores, our libraries,
> our restaurants, where people are bringing in not only service dogs
> that are not service dogs, but also other animals, animals such as a
> snake or a cat and trying to misrepresent them as service animals,
> then we have trouble for citizens and for especially those in the
> disabled community who support this bill,â€ said Rep. Joan McBride 
> (D-Kirkland).
>
> Rep. Vincent Buys (R-Lynden) says people with trained service animals
> helped to craft the bill.
>
> â€œHaving non-trained service animals or emotional service animals,
> emotional support animals, it is very distracting and I think it does
> a disservice to those citizens that need that support," Buys said.
>
> The vote in the House was unanimous. The bill now moves to the Senate.
>
>
>
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?stor
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