[NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
NAGDU President
blind411 at verizon.net
Tue Feb 13 02:45:21 UTC 2018
Mr. Panek,
As you requested, I am replying with the information attached.
With kind regards,
Marion
Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
National Federation of the Blind
(813) 626-2789
President at NAGDU.ORG
The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind people
and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
you back.
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of S L Johnson via
NAGDU
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 7:08 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: S L Johnson
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
Hello:
In 2007 and 2008 I had a situation in my apartment building with a very
aggressive guide dog. The landlord and law enforcement refused to take any
action because after all, it was a blind man and his guide dog. They did
not see how stupid that reasoning was because I am also blind and it was my
guide dog who was suffering multiple daily attacks. When Tara's trainer
contacted the other school he was told that he should not have put out such
a wimpy scared dog. My trainer tried to explain that Tara was fine on class
but multiple attacks on a daily basis were too much for a sensitive golden
especially one who had just come home from class. The police chief even
went so far as to threaten to arrest me for harassment if I did not stop
calling to report the dog attacks. Nobody seemed to care that Tara, who had
just graduated from class was being attacked several times a day. Tara was
a very sweet gentle golden who was extremely sensitive. Her reaction to the
attacks was to hide behind me. It got so bad that she would not leave my
apartment for any reason, not even for relief breaks. The poor dog would
hold it as long as she could because she knew she should not relief herself
in my apartment. When she finally would go outside she was so scared that I
had to do the guiding because she was shaking and trying to hide. With
permission from Tara's trainer, I left er with a good friend so she would be
safe until I could move. She was so frightened to go out into the hall that
he had to pick her up and carry her to his car.
In despiration I moved into the first vacant apartment I could find even
though it was completely unsuitable for my needs. It was a very difficult
place for a blind person to travel. The layout of the complex was very
confusing with lots of crazy angled crossings and places with no sidewalks
The laundry room and bus stop was a mile from our house. That complex and
neighborhood created a lot of stress for both me and Tara. . In addition
to being totally blind I have other medical issues that make walking long
distances extremely painful. However, I knew I had to move to somewhere
Tara would be safe and that was the only apartment I could afford. All the
stress made my newly graduated guide turn into a very nervous worker. It
took a very long time for her to recover and for her to gain confidence to
work again.
This man with his aggressive guide dog should have never been allowed to
move into that building in the first place. On the day in 2007 when he was
touring the building his hundred pound chocolate as ran out of the managers
office and attacked my small golden guide, Cinnamon. I immediately gave the
manager the information about the ADA and pointed out the part about her
being able to ask that man to either control his dog or it could not be in
public housing. She did not seem to care and rented the apartment to him
anyway. Cinnamon's reaction to frequent attacks was to begin barking and
growling in an attempt to cause the other dog to leave her alone. At first
she only did this in the apartment building but as time went on her barking
would occur any time a large dark colored dog came near her. I did not
realize own bad it really was until attending a convention that summer and
she kept barking at many of the other guide dogs. Several trainers who had
known me for many years and had seen me working Cinnamon wanted to know what
had happened to cause her fearful behavior. When I told them they said that
frequent dog attacks can ruin a guide dogs ability to work. At that
convention other blind people screamed at me when Cinnamon barked even
though the sighted people would assure them that she was frightened and
hiding behind me rather than go toward their dogs. I had to deal with that
hatred even though Cinnamon and I were innocent victims of frequent dog
attacks. We had done nothing wrong but were forced to endure the hostility
of other guide dog handlers. I admit, Cinnamon should not have been barking
at other dogs but she was barking out of fear not aggression. I continue to
work on the problem with animal behavior experts but because that horrible
man and his aggressive dog still lived in our building. How could I help
Cinnamon recover when the attacks continued.
It is very obvious that the laws have to change for public housing.
Business owners have to be made to understand that they must insist that
anyone with an out of control dog leave their property. Non of us and our
guides will be safe until this is done. The law enforcement and animal
control officials need to be made to understand that they do have the right
and responsibility to remove a dog who is a threat and danger to other
service dogs and heir handlers.
Sandra Johnson and Eva
SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Tami Jarvis via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:35 PM
To: Danielle Sykora via NAGDU
Cc: Tami Jarvis
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
Danielle,
Yeah, my worst dog encounters have been with card-carrying real service
dogs. And my worst access issue based on another dog's behavior was from,
you got it, a card-carrying guide dog team. Lucky me, I came along just as
the manager had had time to simmer into a fine stew over what had gone on in
his store a day or two before. He went on for quite awhile before he noticed
that both my dog and I were listening politely and having manners and
everything. If even half of what he said was true, he had good reason to be
upset. The handler's behavior was worse than the dog's, which is saying
something. Yikes! According to the angry manager, he not only looked at the
card the guy was waving around, but they got the number of the school off of
it and called them to see if he really had to put up with that. They told
him he did. I told him he didn't and where to check the law and what his
options were and so forth. Sheesh!
So, yeah. I think claiming a disability and passing off your pet as a
trained service dog just to bring it in the store is kinda low down and
scummy. But if your pet behaves, then what the heck. Better that than a
card-carrying menace! I, too, would love to see people get over worrying
about "fake" service dog and try to come up with a solution to the real
problem, which is behavior. That includes the behavior of the human.
Sometimes I view it as entirely about the behavior of the human, since it's
their decision to bring their rotten dog in the first place.
Tami
On 02/12/2018 08:51 AM, Danielle Sykora via NAGDU wrote:
> I was actually thinking along the same lines as Julie. I know some
> states have passed legislation that creates penalties for people miss
> representing a service dog. That's fine with me but I am just as
> concerned with legitimate service dog handlers who's dogs are
> completely out of control. The worst encounter I had with a dog in
> public actually happened last week, with a dog on a retractable leash
> lunging at my dog while the handler laughed, among other poor
> behavior. This person had a visible disability, A dog from a program,
> and an ID card. Of course no one wanted to confront her for these
> reasons even when campus security came to talk to her after myself and
> another handler called, but I eventually was able to get the dog
> removed by showing the video of the dog lunging to one specific
> person. The point of that story is I believe some people think their
> dog can do no wrong and are used to getting away with it for a variety
> of reasons. Maybe if there were a stronger consequence for negative
behavior handlers might take it more seriously.
>
> Oh nly negative I can see with this is people trying to complain about
> a person who's dog didn't do anything wrong or did something very
> minor. I suppose this could happen with any other laws for which fines
> are issued though and complaints could be handled appropriately.
>
> I think people really need to stop focusing on "fake" service dogs and
> start focusing on behavior.
>
> Danielle and Thai
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Feb 12, 2018, at 11:16 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Julie.
>> I am OK with being held responsible for my dog's behavior. I think a
>> lot of us on this list are OK with that. But there are people who
>> act as if anything they do, or their dog does, is OK. Their dog's
>> yapping is no more of a problem than their child's screaming, and how
>> dare anyone ask them to tone it down. So maybe you are right. I
>> think a lot of people would be OK with a polite request for good
>> behavior, if they're not already taking steps to resolve the problem,
>> but a fine might be the only way to get through to some people.
>> I'm not sure how to make people willing to talk to disabled people,
>> or to hold us to equal standards of behavior with non-disabled
>> people. That's part of why we have the NFB, but it's a long row to hoe.
>>
>> Tengentially, my husband really dislikes screaming kids in a
>> restaurant, but, if he says something, he's looked at as the bad guy.
>> So maybe people are just nervous about complaining about anything.
>> I'd say standards for public behavior have fallen, but then I'm a
>> grumpy old lady.
>> Tracy
>>
>>> More pondering...I think there is a distinct and pervasive avoidance of
>>> prosecuting disabled people for anything. I think if there were laws
>>> that
>>> specifically stated that service dog behavior, and emotional support
>>> animal behavior when applicable, is the legal responsibility of the
>>> handler, this would go a long way to assist law enforcement and even
>>> businesses in doing what needs done. I do agree that there are
>>> already laws, such as the ADA and animal control laws that make an
>>> effort at this, but they are not strongly enough stated. disabled
>>> folks must behave, and by extension their service dogs must behave,
>>> in a manner applicable to all.
>>>
>>> Tracy asked what if a dog is behaving just a bit inappropriately,
>>> but not seriously so, as in flopping out into the aisle. I'd like
>>> to think that this could be dealt with just like anything else
>>> flopped into the aisle, like a coat or purse. The obvious thing to
>>> me is that the employee would ask that you move the dog. this does
>>> happen for sure, but not enough.
>>> Again, there is this reluctance to talk to disabled people or hold
>>> us to the same standards as others. There is a fear of being sued or
>>> made to look like an uncaring person in the media.
>>>
>>> If we want equal access we have to claim equal responsibility.
>>> Perhaps my suggestion can't accomplish this. I don't know, but
>>> until we are viewed as equally responsible for our behavior, I think
>>> things are going to get worse.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
>>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
>>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?st
>>> oreid=1916046>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Cindy Ray via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:25 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>>
>>>
>>> Do animal control laws cover on airplanes when the dog bites
>>> someone? I think this is a pervasive enough problem that maybe laws
>>> to this effect do need to be passed. There are animal control laws,
>>> but clearly they are not working in this regard.
>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>>> Carcione via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:04 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>>
>>> I agree with Rebecca that current laws already cover biting. But
>>> suppose the bad behavior doesn't rise to that level? Suppose the
>>> dog is barking its head off, or grabbing food off tables, or has
>>> been allowed to sprawl in the aisle, making it hard for people to
>>> move around it? What then?
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>> Why not let the animal control laws sort it out. For example if a
>>>> person's dog bites someone, there are processes in place to deal
>>>> with it.
>>>> Any reason that couldn't work?
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie
>>>> Johnson via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:03 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>>>
>>>> I was sort of pondering how exactly a law like this could be enforced.
>>>> It does put quite a lot onto the responding police officer.
>>>>
>>>> I've been thinking a lot about the problems with ill behaved dogs
>>>> and what to do about it. I am completely in favor of behavior
>>>> needing to be the standard and helping businesses to understand
>>>> they can disallow people with ill behaved dogs.
>>>>
>>>> This is just an idea and admittedly I haven't thought through all
>>>> the pros and cons, but I'm tossing it out as food for thought, not
>>>> an absolute this is what needs done. I believe in careful thought
>>>> before committing to an idea and community careful thought before
>>>> committing to an action that would affect a large group of people.
>>>>
>>>> What if there were laws that made the person directly responsible
>>>> for the actions of their dog? Some laws already exist of this
>>>> nature, but I do not believe they are strong enough or are worded
>>>> in the way I am thinking.
>>>> I am suggesting that if a person's service or emotional support dog
>>>> bites someone, then the person be charged with assault in the same
>>>> way the person would be charged if they had directly done the biting.
>>>> Legally, a service dog is considered to be a medical appliance. So
>>>> my logic is that if I took my white cane and whacked a person, that
>>>> would be assault. I'm viewing lack of control or inappropriateness
>>>> on the part of the dog to be directly the handler's legal
responsibility.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously this idea needs a lot of work. I get that, but perhaps
>>>> it is a direction we can explore. Some states have laws that make
>>>> it a criminal offense for a person or their pet dog to interfere
>>>> with a service dog team.
>>>> I'm thinking the opposite also needs to be true. A disabled person
>>>> and their service dog needs to not interfere criminally with the
>>>> public.
>>>>
>>>> Please help me think through this idea more fully. Perhaps it's
>>>> the dumbest thing ever. That's okay. I think it's at least worth
>>>> some discussion though.
>>>> Julie
>>>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
>>>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>>>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
>>>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?s
>>>> tor
>>>> eid=1916046>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU President via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:43 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: NAGDU President
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>>>
>>>> Dear All,
>>>>
>>>> The National Asssociation of Guide Dog Users does not have an
>>>> official position on this issue. My personal opinion is that these
>>>> laws, though possibly a deterrent to those who would misrepresent
>>>> their pets as service animals to gain access to public places where
>>>> pets are generally not allowed, are unenforceable. The Americans
>>>> with Disabilities act prohibits public entities and private
>>>> entities that provide public accommodations from making specific
>>>> inquiries about the nature or extent of a personC"b,,b""s
>>>> disability or asking for identification or other documentation that an
animal has been trained.
>>>> This means that a law enforcement officer, as an agent of a public
>>>> entity, may not make such inquiries beyond the two allowed by the
>>>> implementing regulations:1. Is this a service animal required
>>>> because of a disability? and 2. what task or work has the animal
>>>> been trained to perform?
>>>>
>>>> This raises the question of how it will be determined a person is
>>>> misrepresenting themselves as a person with a disability and the
>>>> dog as a service animal? I perceive the only way this sort of
>>>> measure might be enforced would be if a person were denied access
>>>> with their animal, file a charge against the establishment, and
>>>> when the court asked for proof the individual had standing to
>>>> pursue the charges, found that there was no evidence the dog had
>>>> been trained. In other words, I think it is highly unlikely this
>>>> measure will ever be enforced.
>>>>
>>>> These things being said, I believe a better approach is to educate
>>>> businesses as to their rights to exclude dogs that are not under
>>>> control and what, exactly the definition and application of
>>>> C"b,,E"direct threatC"b,,B means under the ADA and state law.
>>>>
>>>> I would be open to hearing your thoughts and suggestions on this issue.
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National
>>>> Federation of the Blind
>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not
>>>> the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we
>>>> raise expectations because low expectations create barriers between
>>>> blind people and our dreams. You can live the life you want!
>>>> Blindness is not what holds you back.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie
>>>> Johnson via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 1:01 PM
>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
>>>> Cc: Julie Johnson
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>>>
>>>> Washington House Approves Fines For People Who Lie About
>>>> Non-Trained Service Animals By Doug Nadvornick C"b,,B" Feb 8, 2018
>>>> http://spokanepublicradio.org/post/washington-house-approves-fines-
>>>> peo ple-who-lie-about-non-trained-service-animals
>>>>
>>>> People with trained service animals helped write a bill in the
>>>> Washington legislature that would fine owners who fraudulently
>>>> claim their animals are trained.
>>>> Credit Spokane Cares
>>>> The Washington House has taken a step toward punishing people who
>>>> misrepresent their animals as service animals.
>>>>
>>>> The chamber on Thursday approved a bill that gives law enforcement
>>>> officers the right to question animal owners if itC"b,,b""s not
>>>> obvious the person has a disability. If itC"b,,b""s determined the
>>>> owner is lying, the officer can write a ticket that carries a fine
>>>> of up to $500.
>>>>
>>>> Supporters say many people take advantage of the federal law that
>>>> allows trained service animals to accompany their owners anywhere.
>>>>
>>>> C"b,,E"When we start having issues in our grocery stores, our
>>>> libraries, our restaurants, where people are bringing in not only
>>>> service dogs that are not service dogs, but also other animals,
>>>> animals such as a snake or a cat and trying to misrepresent them as
>>>> service animals, then we have trouble for citizens and for
>>>> especially those in the disabled community who support this
>>>> bill,C"b,,B said Rep. Joan McBride (D-Kirkland).
>>>>
>>>> Rep. Vincent Buys (R-Lynden) says people with trained service
>>>> animals helped to craft the bill.
>>>>
>>>> C"b,,E"Having non-trained service animals or emotional service
>>>> animals, emotional support animals, it is very distracting and I
>>>> think it does a disservice to those citizens that need that support,"
Buys said.
>>>>
>>>> The vote in the House was unanimous. The bill now moves to the Senate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
>>>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>>>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
>>>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?s
>>>> tor eid=1916046> _______________________________________________
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