[NAGDU] fines for bad behavior

S L Johnson SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
Tue Feb 13 00:07:42 UTC 2018


Hello:

In 2007 and 2008 I had a situation in my apartment building with a very 
aggressive guide dog.  The landlord and law enforcement refused to take any 
action because after all, it was a blind man and his guide dog.  They did 
not see how stupid that reasoning was because I am also blind and it was my 
guide dog who was suffering multiple daily attacks.  When Tara's trainer 
contacted the other school he was told that he should not have put out such 
a wimpy scared dog.  My trainer tried to explain that Tara was fine on class 
but multiple attacks on a daily basis were too much for a sensitive golden 
especially one who had just come home from class.  The police chief even 
went so far as to threaten to arrest me for harassment if I did not stop 
calling to report the dog attacks.  Nobody seemed to care that Tara, who had 
just graduated from class was being attacked several times a day.  Tara was 
a very sweet gentle golden who was extremely sensitive.  Her reaction to the 
attacks was to hide behind me.  It got so bad that she would not leave my 
apartment for any reason, not even for relief breaks.  The poor dog would 
hold it as long as she could because she knew she should not relief herself 
in my apartment.  When she finally would go outside she was so scared that I 
had to do the guiding because she was shaking and trying to hide.  With 
permission from Tara's trainer, I left er with a good friend so she would be 
safe until I could move.  She was so frightened to go out into the hall that 
he had to pick her up and carry her to his car.

In despiration I moved into the first vacant apartment I could find even 
though it was completely unsuitable for my needs.  It was a very difficult 
place for a blind person to travel.   The layout of the complex was very 
confusing with lots of crazy angled crossings and places with no sidewalks 
The laundry room and bus stop was a mile from our house.  That complex and 
neighborhood created a lot of stress for both me and Tara.  .  In addition 
to being totally blind I have other medical issues that make walking long 
distances extremely painful.  However, I knew I had to move to somewhere 
Tara would be safe and that was the only apartment I could afford.   All the 
stress made my newly graduated guide turn into a very nervous worker.  It 
took a very long time for her to recover and for her to gain confidence to 
work again.

This man with his aggressive guide dog should have never been allowed to 
move into that building in the first place.  On the day in 2007 when he was 
touring the building his hundred pound chocolate as ran out of the managers 
office and attacked my small golden guide, Cinnamon.  I immediately gave the 
manager the information about the ADA and pointed out the part about her 
being able to ask that man to either control his dog or it could not be in 
public housing.  She did not seem to care and rented the apartment to him 
anyway.  Cinnamon's reaction to frequent attacks was to begin barking and 
growling in an attempt to cause the other dog to leave her alone.  At first 
she only did this in the apartment building but as time went on her barking 
would occur any time a large dark colored dog came near her.  I did not 
realize own bad it really was until attending a convention that summer and 
she kept barking at many of the other guide dogs.  Several trainers who had 
known me for many years and had seen me working Cinnamon wanted to know what 
had happened to cause her fearful behavior.  When I told them they said that 
frequent dog attacks can ruin a guide dogs ability to work.  At that 
convention other blind people screamed at me when Cinnamon barked even 
though the sighted people would assure them that she was frightened and 
hiding behind me rather than go toward their dogs.  I had to deal with that 
hatred even though Cinnamon and I were innocent victims of frequent dog 
attacks.  We had done nothing wrong but were forced to endure the hostility 
of other guide dog handlers.  I admit, Cinnamon should not have been barking 
at other dogs but she was barking out of fear not aggression.  I continue to 
work on the problem with animal behavior experts but because that horrible 
man and his aggressive dog still lived in our building.  How could I help 
Cinnamon recover when the attacks continued.

It is very obvious that the laws have to change for public housing. 
Business owners have to be made to understand that they must insist that 
anyone with an out of control dog leave their property.  Non of us and our 
guides will be safe until this is done.  The law enforcement and animal 
control officials need to be made to understand that they do have the right 
and responsibility to remove a dog who is a threat and danger to other 
service dogs and heir handlers.

Sandra Johnson and Eva
SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
-----Original Message----- 
From: Tami Jarvis via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:35 PM
To: Danielle Sykora via NAGDU
Cc: Tami Jarvis
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior

Danielle,

Yeah, my worst dog encounters have been with card-carrying real service
dogs. And my worst access issue based on another dog's behavior was
from, you got it, a card-carrying guide dog team. Lucky me, I came along
just as the manager had had time to simmer into a fine stew over what
had gone on in his store a day or two before. He went on for quite
awhile before he noticed that both my dog and I were listening politely
and having manners and everything. If even half of what he said was
true, he had good reason to be upset. The handler's behavior was worse
than the dog's, which is saying something. Yikes! According to the angry
manager, he not only looked at the card the guy was waving around, but
they got the number of the school off of it and called them to see if he
really had to put up with that. They told him he did. I told him he
didn't and where to check the law and what his options were and so
forth. Sheesh!


So, yeah. I think claiming a disability and passing off your pet as a
trained service dog just to bring it in the store is kinda low down and
scummy. But if your pet behaves, then what the heck. Better that than a
card-carrying menace! I, too, would love to see people get over worrying
about "fake" service dog and try to come up with a solution to the real
problem, which is behavior. That includes the behavior of the human.
Sometimes I view it as entirely about the behavior of the human, since
it's their decision to bring their rotten dog in the first place.

Tami

On 02/12/2018 08:51 AM, Danielle Sykora via NAGDU wrote:
> I was actually thinking along the same lines as Julie. I know some states 
> have passed legislation that creates penalties for people miss 
> representing a service dog. That's fine with me but I am just as concerned 
> with legitimate service dog handlers who's dogs are completely out of 
> control. The worst encounter I had with a dog in public actually happened 
> last week, with a dog on a retractable leash lunging at my dog while the 
> handler laughed, among other poor behavior. This person had a visible 
> disability, A dog from a program, and an ID card. Of course no one wanted 
> to confront her for these reasons even when campus security came to talk 
> to her after myself and another handler called, but I eventually was able 
> to get the dog removed by showing the video of the dog lunging to one 
> specific person. The point of that story is I believe some people think 
> their dog can do no wrong and are used to getting away with it for a 
> variety of reasons. Maybe if there were a stronger consequence for 
> negative behavior handlers might take it more seriously.
>
> Oh nly negative I can see with this is people trying to complain about a 
> person who's dog didn't do anything wrong or did something very minor. I 
> suppose this could happen with any other laws for which fines are issued 
> though and complaints could be handled appropriately.
>
> I think people really need to stop focusing on "fake" service dogs and 
> start focusing on behavior.
>
> Danielle and Thai
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Feb 12, 2018, at 11:16 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Julie.
>> I am OK with being held responsible for my dog's behavior.  I think a lot
>> of us on this list are OK with that.  But there are people who act as if
>> anything they do, or their dog does, is OK.  Their dog's yapping is no
>> more of a problem than their child's screaming, and how dare anyone ask
>> them to tone it down.  So maybe you are right.  I think a lot of people
>> would be OK with a polite request for good behavior, if they're not
>> already taking steps to resolve the problem, but a fine might be the only
>> way to get through to some people.
>> I'm not sure how to make people willing to talk to disabled people, or to
>> hold us to equal standards of behavior with non-disabled people.  That's
>> part of why we have the NFB, but it's a long row to hoe.
>>
>> Tengentially, my husband really dislikes screaming kids in a restaurant,
>> but, if he says something, he's looked at as the bad guy.  So maybe 
>> people
>> are just nervous about complaining about anything.  I'd say standards for
>> public behavior have fallen, but then I'm a grumpy old lady.
>> Tracy
>>
>>> More pondering...I think there is a distinct and pervasive avoidance of
>>> prosecuting disabled people for anything.   I think if there were laws
>>> that
>>> specifically stated that service dog behavior, and emotional support
>>> animal
>>> behavior when applicable, is the legal responsibility of the handler, 
>>> this
>>> would go a long way to assist law enforcement and even businesses in 
>>> doing
>>> what needs done.  I do agree that there are already laws, such as the 
>>> ADA
>>> and animal control laws that make an effort at this, but they are not
>>> strongly enough stated.  disabled folks must behave, and by extension
>>> their
>>> service dogs must behave, in a manner applicable to all.
>>>
>>> Tracy asked what if a dog is behaving just a bit inappropriately, but 
>>> not
>>> seriously so, as in flopping out into the aisle.  I'd like to think that
>>> this could be dealt with just like anything else flopped into the aisle,
>>> like a coat or purse.  The obvious thing to me is that the employee 
>>> would
>>> ask that you move the dog.  this does happen for sure, but not enough.
>>> Again, there is this reluctance to talk to disabled people or hold us to
>>> the
>>> same standards as others. There is a fear of being sued or made to look
>>> like
>>> an uncaring person in the media.
>>>
>>> If we want equal access we have to claim equal responsibility.  Perhaps 
>>> my
>>> suggestion can't accomplish this.  I don't know, but until we are viewed
>>> as
>>> equally responsible for our behavior, I think things are going to get
>>> worse.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
>>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
>>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=1916046>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Cindy Ray via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:25 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>>
>>>
>>> Do animal control laws cover on airplanes when the dog bites someone? I
>>> think this is a pervasive enough problem that maybe laws to this effect 
>>> do
>>> need to be passed. There are animal control laws, but clearly they are 
>>> not
>>> working in this regard.
>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy 
>>> Carcione
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:04 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>>
>>> I agree with Rebecca that current laws already cover biting.  But 
>>> suppose
>>> the bad behavior doesn't rise to that level?  Suppose the dog is barking
>>> its
>>> head off, or grabbing food off tables, or has been allowed to sprawl in
>>> the
>>> aisle, making it hard for people to move around it? What then?
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>> Why not let the animal control laws sort it out. For example if a
>>>> person's dog bites someone, there are processes in place to deal with
>>>> it.
>>>> Any reason that couldn't work?
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie
>>>> Johnson via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:03 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>>>
>>>> I was sort of pondering how exactly a law like this could be enforced.
>>>> It does put quite a lot onto the responding police officer.
>>>>
>>>> I've been thinking a lot about the problems with ill behaved dogs and
>>>> what to do about it.  I am completely in favor of behavior needing to
>>>> be the standard and helping businesses to understand they can disallow
>>>> people with ill behaved dogs.
>>>>
>>>> This is just an idea and admittedly I haven't thought through all the
>>>> pros and cons, but I'm tossing it out as food for thought, not an
>>>> absolute this is what needs done.  I believe in careful thought before
>>>> committing to an idea and community careful thought before committing
>>>> to an action that would affect a large group of people.
>>>>
>>>> What if there were laws that made the person directly responsible for
>>>> the actions of their dog?  Some laws already exist of this nature, but
>>>> I do not believe they are strong enough or are worded in the way I am
>>>> thinking.
>>>> I am suggesting that if a person's service or emotional support dog
>>>> bites someone, then the person be charged with assault in the same way
>>>> the person would be charged if they had directly done the biting.
>>>> Legally, a service dog is considered to be a medical appliance.  So my
>>>> logic is that if I took my white cane and whacked a person, that would
>>>> be assault.  I'm viewing lack of control or inappropriateness on the
>>>> part of the dog to be directly the handler's legal responsibility.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously this idea needs a lot of work.  I get that, but perhaps it
>>>> is a direction we can explore.  Some states have laws that make it a
>>>> criminal offense for a person or their pet dog to interfere with a
>>>> service dog team.
>>>> I'm thinking the opposite also needs to be true.  A disabled person
>>>> and their service dog needs to not interfere criminally with the 
>>>> public.
>>>>
>>>> Please help me think through this idea more fully.  Perhaps it's the
>>>> dumbest thing ever.  That's okay.  I think it's at least worth some
>>>> discussion though.
>>>> Julie
>>>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
>>>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>>>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
>>>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?stor
>>>> eid=1916046>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU President via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:43 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: NAGDU President
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>>>
>>>> Dear All,
>>>>
>>>> The National Asssociation of Guide Dog Users does not have an official
>>>> position on this issue. My personal opinion is that these laws, though
>>>> possibly a deterrent to those who would misrepresent their pets as
>>>> service animals to gain access to public places where pets are
>>>> generally not allowed, are unenforceable. The Americans with
>>>> Disabilities act prohibits public entities and private entities that
>>>> provide public accommodations from making specific inquiries about the
>>>> nature or extent of a personââ,¬â"¢s disability or asking for
>>>> identification or other documentation that an animal has been trained.
>>>> This means that a law enforcement officer, as an agent of a public
>>>> entity, may not make such inquiries beyond the two allowed by the
>>>> implementing regulations:1. Is this a service animal required because
>>>> of a disability? and 2. what task or work has the animal been trained 
>>>> to
>>>> perform?
>>>>
>>>> This raises the question of how it will be determined a person is
>>>> misrepresenting themselves as a person with a disability and the dog
>>>> as a service animal? I perceive the only way this sort of measure
>>>> might be enforced would be if a person were denied access with their
>>>> animal, file a charge against the establishment, and when the court
>>>> asked for proof the individual had standing to pursue the charges,
>>>> found that there was no evidence the dog had been trained. In other
>>>> words, I think it is highly unlikely this measure will ever be 
>>>> enforced.
>>>>
>>>> These things being said, I believe a better approach is to educate
>>>> businesses as to their rights to exclude dogs that are not under
>>>> control and what, exactly the definition and application of
>>>> ââ,¬Å"direct
>>>> threatââ,¬Â means  under the ADA and state law.
>>>>
>>>> I would be open to hearing your thoughts and suggestions on this issue.
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National
>>>> Federation of the Blind
>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>>>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>>>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
>>>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is
>>>> not what holds you back.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie
>>>> Johnson via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 1:01 PM
>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
>>>> Cc: Julie Johnson
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] fines for bad behavior
>>>>
>>>> Washington House Approves Fines For People Who Lie About Non-Trained
>>>> Service Animals By Doug Nadvornick ââ,¬Â¢ Feb 8, 2018
>>>> http://spokanepublicradio.org/post/washington-house-approves-fines-peo
>>>> ple-who-lie-about-non-trained-service-animals
>>>>
>>>> People with trained service animals helped write a bill in the
>>>> Washington legislature that would fine owners who fraudulently claim
>>>> their animals are trained.
>>>> Credit Spokane Cares
>>>> The Washington House has taken a step toward punishing people who
>>>> misrepresent their animals as service animals.
>>>>
>>>> The chamber on Thursday approved a bill that gives law enforcement
>>>> officers the right to question animal owners if itââ,¬â"¢s not obvious
>>>> the
>>>> person has a disability. If itââ,¬â"¢s determined the owner is lying,
>>>> the
>>>> officer can write a ticket that carries a fine of up to $500.
>>>>
>>>> Supporters say many people take advantage of the federal law that
>>>> allows trained service animals to accompany their owners anywhere.
>>>>
>>>> ââ,¬Å"When we start having issues in our grocery stores, our 
>>>> libraries,
>>>> our restaurants, where people are bringing in not only service dogs
>>>> that are not service dogs, but also other animals, animals such as a
>>>> snake or a cat and trying to misrepresent them as service animals,
>>>> then we have trouble for citizens and for especially those in the
>>>> disabled community who support this bill,ââ,¬Â said Rep. Joan McBride
>>>> (D-Kirkland).
>>>>
>>>> Rep. Vincent Buys (R-Lynden) says people with trained service animals
>>>> helped to craft the bill.
>>>>
>>>> ââ,¬Å"Having non-trained service animals or emotional service animals,
>>>> emotional support animals, it is very distracting and I think it does
>>>> a disservice to those citizens that need that support," Buys said.
>>>>
>>>> The vote in the House was unanimous. The bill now moves to the Senate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
>>>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>>>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
>>>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?stor
>>>> eid=1916046> _______________________________________________
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