[NAGDU] Delta to Require Advance Documentation for Service, Support Animals to Fly - WSJ - distemper

Mon Jan 29 18:01:58 UTC 2018

Julie,

I hadn't thought about the attitudes of so many handlers in quite that 
way. Maybe I'll be better able to understand where they are coming from now?

I agree that businesses need to step up and exercise their rights when 
it comes to badly behaved dogs in their establishments. Once they choose 
to let the problem go on, then it's on them. If the problem grows, as it 
is likely to do, and if they continue to do nothing, then they have no 
call to complain about it. It is their responsibility, and they can have 
the blame.

I also think talk of "fake service dogs" is counterproductive. It 
doesn't matter if the dog is a service dog or not. The entity can have 
the handler remove the dog if the handler can't or won't control it. If 
it's well-groomed and well-behaved and the handler takes responsibility 
for it's behavior, then it's not part of the real problem. If it's a 
well-behaved pet accompanying it's able-bodied owner, then it shouldn't 
be there, but what the heck? It's not causing problems. The grilling and 
harrassment of people with hidden disabilities accompanied by their 
service dogs is a problem. So I would rather overlook Fluffy, and have 
Cujo's owner dealt with directly to get Cujo out of the store.

If I get a piece of paper, or a bunch of pieces of paper, regarding my 
dog, that will not affect Fluffy or Cujo or their owners in the 
slightest. For that matter, if I get all those pieces of paper saying 
I'm disabled and my dog is tasked trained, that won't make me a more or 
less responsible handler. It will have zero impact on my dog's 
day-to-day behavior in complicated, high-stimulus, high-stress 
environments. And so on. If I suddenly decide I want to use my guide dog 
without all the bother of seeing that he minds his manners, then the 
paper won't change that, either. It's one thing to take the effort to 
pass a test. But it's taking the effort to keep up the good behavior day 
after day and year after year that counts. As I tell business owners who 
ask about these things, if I can't do that, then they can have me remove 
my dog from their store. And should.

Tami

On 01/28/2018 04:03 PM, Julie Johnson via NAGDU wrote:
> That is really the $64,000 question.
> 
> I find it interesting that the discussion always leads to what can we, 
> as the service dog community, do to prevent ill behaved dogs infringing 
> on our right to move about in the world.  .  We talk about new laws, 
> ID's, submitting paperwork, restrictions of all sorts, argue about it 
> and circle around to the beginning.
> 
> I think perhaps a better question is: Why are businesses and airlines 
> not enforcing their right to exclude people who are causing disturbances 
> with their dog?  Doesn't the behavior of ignoring the problem and 
> allowing these people to let their dogs run amuck have some culpability?
> 
> We are assuming the responsibility for this problem and I'm asking why? 
> Don't businesses and airlines have responsibility to use the laws and 
> rules they have available to them already?
> 
> I think blind and disabled people have this history of being the 
> problem. We are told that we are too slow, to expensive to accommodate, 
> in the way and we should sit down and let someone help.  After a 
> lifetime of being subjected to those messages, even with significant 
> effort to be autonomous, bits of the societal attitude seeps into our 
> subconscious.  Shouldn't we just accept what Delta is doing, they are 
> just trying to help us after all. We should submit health records 
> because we wouldn't want someone to say bad things about how we care for 
> our dogs.   Those thoughts come about because of our perceived place in 
> society.   If it's not those exact thoughts, it's something else that 
> stems directly from the feeling that we are somehow the problem.
> 
> I think we need to reexamine our personal beliefs about what we are 
> responsible for and insist that the actual responsible parties put their 
> big kid pants on and do the adult, responsible thing...ask the owners of 
> the ill behaved dogs to leave.
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=1916046> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Becky Frankeberger via NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2018 5:24 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: Becky Frankeberger
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Delta to Require Advance Documentation for Service, 
> Support Animals to Fly - WSJ - distemper
> 
> Hey correct me, but doesn't the flight crew have the ability to levy 
> fines. This drunk guy was bothering Kevin and his guide dog. The flight 
> attendant said firmly to get back in his assigned seat or a ten thousand 
> dollar fine would be owed or levied on him.
> 
> Why wouldn't this apply to esa or even pet dogs out of their carriers 
> causing problems?
> 
> Becky
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jenine 
> Stanley via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 3:22 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Jenine Stanley <jeninems at icloud.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Delta to Require Advance Documentation for Service, 
> Support Animals to Fly - WSJ - distemper
> 
> I whole-heartedly agree with you, Marion. Also if an animal is out of 
> control in the cabin during flight, the animal should be required to be 
> transported in cargo for any remaining legs of that flight and a fine 
> should be levied against the owner.
> 
> The ACAA does not, by the nature of being a civil rights law, prescribe 
> penalties against individuals who violate its provisions. It’s a law 
> designed to protect rights, not punish those who abuse rights/definitions.
>> On Jan 20, 2018, at 6:08 PM, NAGDU President via NAGDU 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> My opinion on this and on the more gloabal issue of fake service dog 
>> users - whether under the ADA or ACAA - is that once businesses begin 
>> confidently denying those with poorly-behaved dogs from their 
>> premises, the issue will continue. If someone were to show up at the 
>> airline gate with an out-of-control dog and they were denied carriage 
>> on that plane, the problem will begin to abate.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>>
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National
>> Federation of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the 
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise 
>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind 
>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is 
>> not what holds you back.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tara Briggs
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 4:58 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Tara Briggs
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Delta to Require Advance Documentation for
>> Service, Support Animals to Fly - WSJ - distemper
>>
>> Hi all! So I’m just wondering how exactly this policy is going to help 
>> the issue. I was reading somebody’s comment on it on Facebook. This 
>> person is blind and was traveling with a friend who had a guy dog. She 
>> had major allergies to a friends dog and she went and sat in another 
>> part of the plane. She was joined by some people with extremely poorly 
>> behaved think emotional service animals. In addition, one of those 
>> service animals got loose before they boarded the plane and try to 
>> attack her friends guy dog. So it does seem to me that something needs 
>> to be done. And what I really wish that is is I wish that Delso went 
>> after the people with the fake service animals because it wasn’t 
>> behaving like a service animal and welcome to the well-behaved guy dog 
>> on the plane. What everybody’s thoughts?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jan 20, 2018, at 1:24 PM, David via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> That's perfectly clear, Tracy.
>>>
>>> *David in Clearwater, FL*
>>> *david at bakerinet.com*
>>>> On 1/20/2018 2:31 PM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU wrote:
>>>> I don't see how proof of vaccination has any relation to good
>>>> behavior, otherwise.
>>>
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