[NAGDU] Bones and Degrees of Chewers

[Heather Bird]

I've got to say that your vet seems not to be fully informed about what dogs
eat in the wild. The health risks in ingesting bones are for cooked bones as
I said in my post. I have no idea where your vet got the idea that dogs and
wolves in the wild do not ingest much bone. They absolutely do. They eat
everything, muscle, fat, skin, bone, and even things like feet, and they
chew antlers, hooves. They eat absolutely everything they can. If a group of
wolves finishes with a kill, there is next to nothing left. Especially in
the case of rodents, birds, rabbits, etc., they eat everything down, just
like that. This isn't a slam against your vet or against vets in general.
It's not their fault, but you've got to think about who educates vets and
provides the text books and gives them tons of free materials and samples.
The dog food manufacturers. Many veterinary textbooks have the logos and or
the names of the major dog food companies right on them. Many of the health
studies and research, even research not related to feeding or diet, are
funded by and or conducted by or in some other way affiliated with the dog
food manufacturers. I will listen to the concerns of a vet who is actually
familiar with raw feeding, the pros and the cons, but any vet who says
absolutely end of story that raw is bad, or absolutely end of story, raw is
good is not a vet I will bring my dog to. I insist on well-informed
healthcare professionals for myself and my dog and those who make blanket
denouncements or endorsements are usually showing that they don't actually
know what they are talking about. My current vet likes raw, but does not
recommend it to everyone and she could rattle off a list of the right and
wrong things to do when raw feeding, which is why I selected her, among
other things. I have to say that feeding my dogs raw has not made them any
more or less food driven or likely to beg. Whether you feed kibble or raw or
homemade food it is important that you have a system, such as in a bowl, in
the crate, or in the back yard, and that you never hand them kibble, raw
chicken quarters or homemade oatmeal and beef loaf from the table. Where you
feed them not what you feed them determines whether or not they beg. Often
dogs fed a raw diet which is more flavorful, more varied, more interactive
show a lessening in scavenging behaviors. I don't recommend feeding
processed people food to dogs, such as pasta, pizza, cakes, etc., but I do
know a handler who regularly shares such with their guide, and they always
do it in the dish, non-negotiable, and that dog never begs and rarely
scavenges. If it is a behavioral question I would ask your school, and your
fellow handlers on this and other lists, but vets are not trained in dog
behavior or training and their advice can range from helpful, to worthless,
to seriously detrimental. Oh, having a release word for giving treats or
serving meals also helps to diminish begging and scavenging. I use "take
it." I'm not going to try this experiment and I don't suggest it, but if you
were to put a slice of pizza into your dog's bowl every day, or to pass out
pieces of kibble while seated at the table, I guarantee you that the pizza
fed dog is not going to beg and the kibble fed dog is absolutely going to
wine, drool and beg at the table. You could substitute dog chewing big
marrow bone in the living room for pizza in the bowl dog and I also
guarantee you that kibble from the table dog will beg and bone in the living
room dog will not.

Heather Bird
"They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't
a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I
wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a
Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up." -
Martin Niemöller
In our diverse society we must never fail to speak up in the face of Human
Rights violations lest we be the next targets of such violations.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of sonfire11--- via
NAGDU
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 12:43 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: sonfire11 at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Bones and Degrees of Chewers

I don't give my dog real bones because he would have them done in a matter
of minutes because he is too motivated by food. My vet also considers that
dogs are meat eaters just like cats. They might eat meat, but it is mostly
unnatural for a dog to eat bone material on a regular basis (at least in the
wild). Even though marrow is good for a dog, real bone carries more fiber
than a dog's diet dictates. It's not good for a dog to eat any type of bone,
plastic, nylon, or other man made product. However, my vet would rather him
eat nylon or nylabone flakes than real bone considering the health risks of
real bone. Another problem he wanted me to consider is that Alec would be
more tempted to beg for food given real bone or antlers filled with some
sort of treat.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Heather Bird via NAGDU
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 12:23 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Heather Bird <heather.l.bird at gmail.com>
Subject: [NAGDU] Bones and Degrees of Chewers

When to discard a bone depends on two things. 1. What is it made of? And 2.
How serious of a chewer is your dog?

 

If you have a real bone and it is raw, even if your dog swallows a piece of
it, it is likely to be just fine. However, if it is a cooked or bleached
bone, the fragment will be harder, sharper, harder to digest and much more
likely to cause problems in the digestive track. This is the reason that a
raw fed dog can happily ingest an entire chicken quarter, bones and all, but
a dog getting cooked chicken bones out of the trash could be in very serious
medical trouble. If your dog is chewing something, be it a Nyla bone, a raw
bone, a bleached bone, an antler, etc., you have to assume that they will
ingest it or some of it. That is why, I personally, use Nyla bones in a
limited fashion, because thousands of tiny pieces of nylon, plastic, are
ingested by my dog. I work hard to pick a dog food without additives or
chemicals in it, and it seems silly to go to all of that effort and then
encourage my dog to consume plastic. I do use them occasionally though,
especially if Ilsa is going to be in public where she will be observed or if
she is being watched by someone who isn’t familiar with or comfortable with
raw meaty bones. I have a couple of Nyla bones around, the big, substantial
kind with the knots at each end. The bulk of what I give are large meaty
bones with some muscle still on them and all of the nutritious marrow
inside. I use beef mostly, sometimes pork, mostly large leg bones, but
sometimes knuckle bones. The one thing I never give are the smoked, bleached
or otherwise treated real bones. Do I want my dog eating plastic? No, not
particularly, but that is still safer than hardened, sharp real bone
fragments that have been processed and cooked. My mom gave her dogs bleach
bones for years, but they were not super aggressive chewers so they only
chipped off infinitesimal pieces. Ilsa is a super chewer. My last dog took
three or 4 hours to finish one of the long 3 foot long bully sticks. Ilsa
has it down to a two inch nub within about 30 minutes. My previous dog would
start to actively break off pieces at the edge of large marrow bones after a
week, and Ilsa starts that up a few hours after getting the bone. She would
be at much greater risk with those bleached bone style chews. Now she does
not chip much off of Nyla bones, probably because she doesn’t care for them
much. If she has no other options, she will chew one, but I think her low
motivation to chew them is what makes it safe for her. If she went after
Nyla bones the way she goes after other items, she would be pooping out inch
long pieces of hard plastic, but she just isn’t that interested. Antlers can
be a great chew, for most dogs, Ilsa cannot safely have them because she is
actively splintering the ends within a matter of minutes. An antler,
especially an elk, not a deer antler, should last a typical dog for days and
days and days before it has to be discarded. But, Ilsa has lost her antler
privileges. If I can ever find un-split antlers that are not a length wise
section, I might see if those can stand up to her chewing, but the ones I
can buy locally just don’t cut it. They have kongs in different hardness’s
and some dogs, especially toy breeds or elderly dogs can chew the very soft
ones, I think they are pink and light blue, maybe yellow. The Seeing Eye
issues the medium hard red ones. The hardest ones are black. Ilsa can take
apart a black one in a short time. Does this mean that I never give them to
her? Nope. I just play fetch with them, then put them up. I do not give them
to her to chew. If I fill a Kong with yogurt, chicken broth, pumpkin, etc.
and freeze it, I monitor her and take it away as soon as she has gotten it
emptied, wash it, refill and freeze again. So, there is no one-size fits all
answer to which toys or chews are safe, because it depends on the dog and
the material of the toy. In theory, if a handler is closely monitoring their
dog, just about any toy could be safe, but the schools have to give general
guidelines under the assumption that some handlers will be well-intentioned,
but not very observant, and some will be just plane negligent, because guide
dog school students vary widely as does the general population. So, when my
school discourages squeakers, and stuffed toys, I just smile and nod,
because I know how to supervise my dog, I know how to inspect toys for
quality of construction, and then I go home and do my own thing. Ilsa’s
favorite toy has squeaks, crinkly fabric and is stuffed, and it is still in
one piece, because we play, fetch the bunny, and shake it to death, then
give it back to mom, no laying down to systematically disembowel it. *smile*
And, that toy has lasted a year and a half. I hope some of this is helpful.

 

Heather Bird

"They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't
a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I
wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a
Protestant.

Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up." -
Martin Niemöller

In our diverse society we must never fail to speak up in the face of Human
Rights violations lest we be the next targets of such violations.

 

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