[NAGDU] Horrible Left Tendency

Wed Aug 28 20:22:43 UTC 2019

and I didn't take it personally, either, you know I have strong opinions 
and usually don't feel very constrained about expressing them, nothing 
personally meant about anyone.

Dan

On 8/28/2019 4:07 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU wrote:
> None of us is going to use the same technique; each of us has a different way of handling it or not. Julie asked for input as to what others do. This doesn't imply criticism. Also, we aren't really walking in Julie's shoes, especially if this has developed over a period of time. If a dog has bad habits and we let it go for whatever reason, they get worse. I know that I have done this. If you brush a branch a little bit and don't correct, then the dog might eventually slam you into those. So this is a situation which isn't asking anyone to change what they do. Julie J. was using the eating as an analogy, as you know, and no one felt that theirs was the cure all. I for instance had never heard the "right over" command, or was it "over right", and it had never occurred to me to treat it like a right turn to get the dog where I wanted it to go. But we each have the right to ignore it or worry about it, especially if we don't know what got it going in the first place. This is purely a discussion as to what you would do if your dog has horrible left tendencies and you want it to change.
> Cindy Lou Ray
> cindyray at gmail.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 2:49 PM
> To: Julie Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Horrible Left Tendency
>
> also they will be embarrassed by how I use a long white cane and sweep it from side to side almost wall to wall like some blind friends of mine do--lol.
>
> I don't see the comparison as quite apt but your my friend, and I respect you of course..
>
> and if I force my dog too far right
>
>    I might hurt myself, confuse the dog's training and so on, so that would have consequences for me.  So I'll stick to my way and you can eat with a fork if you like--lol
>
> On the other hand I've never had a dog with such a severe left tendency as people are claiming...I think it is natural to be at least somewhat to the left if we are in the middle of a path and the dog  is to the left of us, I fail to see the big deal...but i'm not in the other Julie's shoes and don't know what her dog is doing.
>
> though I've said to me it's not a big deal the fact is it obviously is one if Julie is having problems with it...I just would caution people to be careful of the armchair members of the public, family or even friends who will sometimes influence you to make bad mobility choices.
>
>
>
> On 8/28/2019 12:56 PM, Julie Johnson via NAGDU wrote:
>> I guess, for me, it's kind of like using silverware.   Sure I could
>> eat my salad with my fingers, it might even be easier, I don't know,
>> but the societal expectation is to use a fork.  There are consequences
>> for not conforming to societal expectations and you have to decide if
>> you are willing to pay the price.  If I'm with friends at a restaurant
>> and I don't use silverware to eat my salad, they are going to be
>> horribly embarrassed and never invite me again.  Maybe some people
>> would be okay with that, I'm not.  I choose to use the fork.
>>
>> When you walk against the flow of traffic, in this case on the left,
>> you will cause a lot of other people to have to dodge out of your way.
>> If you are walking with others, the dodging and jostling gets even
>> more complicated.  The people you are with will likely be
>> uncomfortable or embarrassed by your unconventional behavior.  Maybe
>> this is no big deal to you and you are willing to deal with those
>> consequences.  I choose to keep to the right.
>>
>> There are certainly lots of things I do that are against the social
>> norms. I think that's true for everyone.  But each person has to
>> decide which rules to break and which consequences they can live with
>>
>> Julie
>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?stor
>> eid=1916046>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Dan Weiner via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 10:26 AM
>> To: Sarah Calhoun via NAGDU
>> Cc: Dan Weiner
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Horrible Left Tendency
>>
>> why do you want to be on the right side of a sidewalk? I'm not trying
>> to gt the moderator to send me a harsh reprimand?--lol but, why do you
>> feel it necessary other than what other people tell you to do?  If
>> your dog isn't slamming you in to things, bumping you in to people, or
>> causing you danger or lack of safety in other ways why is that so
>> important? the same with buildings, when I was a full time employee
>> everyone and his brother had advice as to how my dog should do his
>> job, whether they would last for five minutes as a blind person I
>> don't know--smile but they would just insist on giving me advice.  I
>> would ignore it or explain the best I could, but the bottom line was
>> eventually ignore, I just want to make sure that all of the people who
>> want their dog on the right just don't want it to please critics among
>> their friends or family. why is it important unless you are trying to
>> find something specific on the right side or folow a specific right
>> shoulder? Mind you, in the beginning of my dog days, I let myself be
>> convinced by nitwits in my circle of colleagues and friends that I
>> should walk on the right and I spent a year trying to fullfill their
>> expectations with frankly unsafe results I just learned to do what I need to do.
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>> Anyway, just some food for thought.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/28/2019 9:59 AM, Sarah Calhoun via NAGDU wrote:
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> I have been reading with interest the topic of the left tendency
>>> guide work.
>>>
>>> While walking through an office building, aisle, sidewalk, etc., my
>>> guide dog, Lakota tends to walk in the middle of the walkway, keeping
>>> me well off from the right side. As someone mentioned, I hold the
>>> leash in my right hand and tell her, "Right shoulder". It seems to
>>> work a bit maybe by a few inches, told to me by family or friends.
>>>
>>> I am mindful of others around us, plus I work on getting Lakota to
>>> move a bit right, but there again she might be walking me around an
>>> object, obstacle or stepping off of a curb. I give her verbal praise
>>> as she moves a bit to the right as we work our way to our
>>> destination.
>>>
>>> In a perfect world, I would like to have my guide dog guide me
>>> exactly on the right side of a sidewalk, etc.  But considering the
>>> complexity of her training, guide work, observing the environment and
>>> deciding on her own how to best avoid the trash can, someone stopping
>>> in the hallway, find the elevator, door, steps, etc., I/we do the
>>> best we can. When the opportunity presents itself, I explain the
>>> reason why Lakota works in the middle of the isle, sidewalk, etc., in
>>> hopes for a wider scope of understanding from the public, mainly the
>>> sighted public.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sarah and Lakota
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Julie McGinnity
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 7:41 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Horrible Left Tendency
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the suggestions.
>>>
>>> First, I have complete confidence in the safety of my dog.  I know
>>> this because I know he is not pulling me out into traffic.  I also
>>> have tried dropping the harness handle and just starting over on the right.
>>> Sometimes
>>> when I've dropped the harness handle, Bill refused to move because
>>> there was an obstacle in our way.  He won't allow me to run into
>>> things.
>>>
>>> I had a dog once whose left tendency got worse because she was done
>>> working.
>>> This isn't the same.  I feel uncomfortable with him moving to the
>>> left, but I don't feel as though he will run me into things or allow
>>> me to be surrounded by traffic.  Do I think he's pushing boundaries
>>> though?  Yes.
>>>
>>> I could let it go and just deal with it.  But I don't want to do this
>>> for two reasons.  1. There is a reason for this, and there is, more
>>> importantly, a reason it has gotten worse.  I can't tell if it's
>>> boredom, testing me, a combination of those two, or something else I
>>> haven't thought of.  And I want to figure out what's going on and try
>>> to help him through it if I can.
>>> 2. I believe he can be trained out of it.  He might be 7, but he
>>> still loves to work.  He likes to go new places and learn new things.
>>> Yes, his stubbornness has gotten worse with age, but our bond has
>>> also strengthened.
>>> I believe that given the right method, we can reduce this problem.
>>>
>>> I will likely try to give him a positive reminder of why it's cool to
>>> be on the right side.  None of the corrective work seems to do the
>>> trick with him.
>>> He just wants to fight against those methods and go right back to
>>> walking on the left side. Thanks.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/27/19, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Thanks for clarifying.
>>>> Cindy Lou
>>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jordan Gallacher
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 8:31 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher <jordangandoliver at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Horrible Left Tendency
>>>>
>>>> Among others such as being aggressive around other dogs, he would
>>>> either pull or we would do a slow drift to the left into the
>>>> parallel
>>> street.
>>>> Jordan
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
>>>> NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 8:25 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: cindyray at gmail.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Horrible Left Tendency
>>>>
>>>> Jordan, what was the problem with Belto?
>>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jordan Gallacher
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 6:07 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher <jordangandoliver at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Horrible Left Tendency
>>>>
>>>> Which was one of the problems with Belto, and Leader Dogs told me
>>>> that was perfectly fine for him to be doing.
>>>> Jordan
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via
>>>> NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:30 PM
>>>> To: Sherri via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Horrible Left Tendency
>>>>
>>>> but here's a problem folks, if you have a left tender you are saying
>>>> you should pull the dog to the right or step to the right, how do
>>>> you know there isn't  something on the right side that you will trip
>>>> over or a clearance issue? unless you use your cane of course to
>>>> check. the only time I would find it an absolute emergency and not
>>>> to be tolerated would be during a street crossing and if the left
>>>> side were the parallel traffic, now that would be a serious issue indeed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 8/27/2019 4:02 PM, Sherri via NAGDU wrote:
>>>>> Wow, I wish I had known that suggestion.  I had an extremely
>>>>> left-walking dog.  Someone told me it's because they are taught to
>>>>> walk on the left side of the street, so they incorporate that into
>>>>> their walking behavior.  I was never successful getting her to walk
>>>>> much
>>>> on the right side of anything.
>>>>> Sherri
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of sunshine
>>>>> via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 1:01 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: sunshine <halogirl817 at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Horrible Left Tendency
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael, I was advised to do likewise. With one dog that didn't
>>>>> work at
>>>> all.
>>>>> She resisted all the more. Then there was a dog that I could
>>>>> correct using the method, but she'd bounce back to scraping the buildings.
>>>>> There was not an explanation for same. They're trained to walk in
>>>>> the
>>>> middle, though.
>>>>> Sunshine
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone XR
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 27, 2019, at 10:55 AM, Mike Hingson via NAGDU
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Julie,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have experienced the same thing. I never have gotten a good
>>>>>> explanation for this tendency. One suggestion a trainer did offer
>>>>>> is that when your dog veers to the left, push your harness handle
>>>>>> even further to the left. This is a bit uncomfortable for the dog
>>>>>> and they move to the right to correct. I found that this
>>>>>> suggestion did work some.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: NAGDU On Behalf Of Julie McGinnity via NAGDU
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:59 AM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Cc: Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Horrible Left Tendency
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This has probably been discussed before, so I apologize for
>>>>>> repeated
>>>>> topics.
>>>>>> But how have you handled a ridiculously pronounced left tendency
>>>>>> your dog continues to display?  My dog, Bill, is 7 years old, and
>>>>>> he has gotten super stubborn lately about sticking to the left
>>>>>> side of everything.  I mean that he will hug walls, keep me on the
>>>>>> left sides of sidewalks to the point where I am hesitating to walk
>>>>>> so close to the edge or to the buildings we're nearly brushing up
>>>>>> against, and he pretty much refuses to redirect towards to the right.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know dogs are trained on the left.  I know they prefer the left.
>>>>>> I have mentioned this to my school, and they don't seem to think
>>>>>> it's a big
>>>>> deal.
>>>>>> But it's creating problems for me as I try to walk with others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have used his leash to show him where I want him to walk.  I've
>>>>>> corrected for hitting walls and corners with his harness. I've
>>>>>> also just stopped when he actively shoots to the left as we walk.
>>>>>> When I let go of the harness, he literally walks to the left.  I
>>>>>> have an offset handle, and it's possible I lean to the right, and
>>>>>> he is reacting to oppose my motion, but I dislike being pulled to the left.
>>>>>> It makes me feel uncomfortable.  He still takes me around
>>>>>> obstacles to the right, so maybe there is hope.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any ideas?  I don't use food rewards much, but if it's the best
>>>>>> solution for fixing this, I can break them out again. Working with
>>>>>> my first dog was a battle much of the time for this and other
>>>>>> reasons.  I absolutely love working this dog.  He is responsive
>>>>>> and well-behaved and teachable, but this challenge is only
>>>>>> creating a dividing line between us.  Thank you in advance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Julie A. McGinnity
>>>>>> MM Vocal Performance, 2015; President, National Federation of the
>>>>>> Blind Performing Arts Division; First Vice President, National
>>>>>> Federation of the Blind of Missouri
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> --
>>> Julie A. McGinnity
>>> MM Vocal Performance, 2015; President, National Federation of the
>>> Blind Performing Arts Division; First Vice President, National
>>> Federation of the Blind of Missouri
>>>
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