[NAGDU] Acceptance of service dogs in Europe

Dan Weiner dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net
Fri Jun 14 01:34:57 UTC 2019


Fascinating cultural notes and descriptions, thank you so much for 
sharing this with yous. would love to hear from you more about your travels.


Now since I believe Switzerland is not? in the EU and Italy is, was 
there any difference in documentation and paperwork for your entry in to 
those countries?


Dan W.


On 6/13/2019 9:18 PM, Peter Wolf via NAGDU wrote:
> Hey all, one more thing for info.  Just back from 3 and a half weeks in Europe, I can update info here.
>
> First, in Switzerland, they have only one classification for service dogs, seeing eye.  No other categories are recognized.  And they want to see a certification card.  A Swiss one, not someone else’s.  However, once explained that we were visiting, and explaining the use of the dog verbally in German (bindenhund), and/or holding up my cane to relate, it worked to show the card from our school, and simply explain that we were visiting.  They also recognize guide dogs in training just like working guides.
>
>   It was also interesting, that, since Andrea’s service dog is not about vision, that it still worked out once Metukah and I were addressed.  We immediately found ourselves concerned about this, because we were already there!  Interestingly, we would simply disclose what our dogs do, then the train conductors and other officials would expain the rules, then almost always say something like, “but it is perfectly fine with me” and wish us a good time, whatever it was we were doing.  We appreciated that, because at first we were very concerned for Andrea and Kira.
>
> There’s a reason why people sometimes say something runs smoothly like a Swiss watch…in Swiss culture the watch metaphor is no accident, not for anything!  We found that we loved this about Switzerland.  Amidst such precision as a societal context, there is a wonderful feeling of relaxation actually.  Everything runs on time, is wonderfully clean, and it seems like there isn’t a hurry going on. Adrenaline doesn’t seem such an everyday thing there.  We really enjoyed being there and it made it all the more pleasant meeting people.
>
> Then Italy, oh Italy.  Italy was interesting in this regard.  They have only one category also, seeing eye.  But Italy is a multifaceted festival of seeming randomness, and chaos, even when there are rules, schedules or expectations.  Italy is a party.  No matter where we went, we got hit with a lot of heat and crap right up front, no dogs, no dogs, sorry (not sorry), no dogs!  But then, asking in Italian how to describe us, I learned an alarming phrase, the one that is specifically used for guide dogs.  The term is Cane (pronounced cahn-neh), di Invalida.  What a sucky phrase.  In language translation, you literally have to tell someone that this is a dog for a person who is an invalid, and point to your cane or yourself.  But this, in Italian, is specifically what they call a guide dog!  That took time to get used to, which I never did, because if we learn the leve of self-mastery that it takes to work in the world without the dominant sense of vision, that is one very capable person.
>
> Then it gets interesting.  Say, you walk into a ruin or a museum.  You get hit with the no-dog, no-dog challenge.  In Italian, you meet them, get in a conversation, and identify the dog.  Everyone pauses a moment, they confer, and then everything warms.  The doors open, all smiles, and they won’t accept your money for the ticket, no matter what you say.  It’s weird, especially for those of us who don’t wish for special treatment.  It’s a gauntlet.  You have to prepare to get bounced off the door, or get the boot if you’ve walked in already.  You meet and greet, and then it’s all love.  And everyone in that moment was always so in the festival of it at that moment, that they just welcomed Andrea and Kira also, alaying our similar concern.   The dynamic was bizarre and wonderful in how the heart came through.  Gotta love this about Italy.
>
>
>> On Jun 12, 2019, at 8:00 AM, nagdu-request at nfbnet.org wrote:
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>> Today's Topics:
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>>    1. National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws failing
>>       to keep up with the rise of assistance animals (Paul Harpur)
>>    2. Re: National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws
>>       failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals (Tara Briggs)
>>    3. Re: National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws
>>       failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>>       (Tracy Carcione)
>>    4. Re: National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws
>>       failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals (Bonnie Mosen)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 12:21:16 +0000
>> From: Paul Harpur <p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au>
>> To: "nagdu at nfbnet.org" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws
>> 	failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<SYCPR01MB5357BADA304905D3DAE58B4A98ED0 at SYCPR01MB5357.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
>> 	
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Tonight there was an hour long analysis of the practices and laws on disability assistance animals in Australia.  The wording of the laws mirror the Fair Housing Act and you can see similar issues and different proposals for reform: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/australia-s-laws-failing-to-keep-up-with-the-rise-of-assistance-animals
>>
>>
>> Dr Paul Harpur
>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing)
>> Fulbright Future Scholar<https://www.fulbright.org.au/current-scholars/>/International Distinguished Fellow<https://www.google.com.au/search?source=hp&ei=dosPXJDEFdO89QOTu47IDw&q=burton+blatt+institute+harpur&btnK=Google+Search&oq=burton+blatt+institute+harpur&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160l2.1230.4556..4826...0.0..1.294.6039.0j15j14......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0j35i39j0i131j0i22i30j0i22i10i30.B7g_g7X_Ck4>, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York.
>> Senior Lecturer
>>
>> TC Beirne School of Law
>> The University of Queensland
>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia
>>
>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609
>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au<mailto:p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au> TCB Profile<https://law.uq.edu.au/paul-harpur>/Google Citation Page <https://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=6Y47my0AAAAJ&hl=en>
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>> Scientia ac Labore
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 06:37:20 -0600
>> From: Tara Briggs <thflute at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's
>> 	laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>> Message-ID: <0414D8CA-7275-4081-811A-6E025FEE9361 at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
>>
>> Thank you for sharing this Paul. I am beginning to wonder if this is a good idea. For those who haven?t read the article, it basically argues for some type of certification essentially saying you need to have a drivers license type of ID card to have a service dog. I guess In an ideal world, businesses would kick out the wild pets. But I think that most businesses are too scared to do that. My two concerns are these I want owner trainers who have well-trained and well behaved service dogs to have the same rights of access as anybody else. And there are dogs that are trained by fantastic schools that turn into heathens once their owners get them home. How do we handle that?
>> Tara
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jun 11, 2019, at 6:21 AM, Paul Harpur via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Tonight there was an hour long analysis of the practices and laws on disability assistance animals in Australia.  The wording of the laws mirror the Fair Housing Act and you can see similar issues and different proposals for reform: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/australia-s-laws-failing-to-keep-up-with-the-rise-of-assistance-animals
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr Paul Harpur
>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing)
>>> Fulbright Future Scholar<https://www.fulbright.org.au/current-scholars/>/International Distinguished Fellow<https://www.google.com.au/search?source=hp&ei=dosPXJDEFdO89QOTu47IDw&q=burton+blatt+institute+harpur&btnK=Google+Search&oq=burton+blatt+institute+harpur&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160l2.1230.4556..4826...0.0..1.294.6039.0j15j14......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0j35i39j0i131j0i22i30j0i22i10i30.B7g_g7X_Ck4>, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York.
>>> Senior Lecturer
>>>
>>> TC Beirne School of Law
>>> The University of Queensland
>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia
>>>
>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609
>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au<mailto:p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au> TCB Profile<https://law.uq.edu.au/paul-harpur>/Google Citation Page <https://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=6Y47my0AAAAJ&hl=en>
>>> CRICOS code: 00025B
>>>
>>> [https://omc.uq.edu.au/files/4097/UQEmailBannerGeneric.jpg]
>>>
>>>
>>> Scientia ac Labore
>>>
>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland.
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 08:47:54 -0400
>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
>> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's
>> 	laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>> Message-ID: <001301d52053$e371fb50$aa55f1f0$@access.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="utf-8"
>>
>> It's my understanding that, at least for guide dogs, it's different in Australia, the UK, and lots of other countries, than it is here in the US.  There's only one guide dog school there, with several branches.  I'm not sure owner-trained dogs are "legal".  It seems to me that the guide dog school clamps down hard on any competition.  So, for guide dogs, the school would issue an ID, and that would be that.
>> I'd really like to know if my understanding is correct.
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tara Briggs via NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 8:37 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Tara Briggs
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>>
>> Thank you for sharing this Paul. I am beginning to wonder if this is a good idea. For those who haven?t read the article, it basically argues for some type of certification essentially saying you need to have a drivers license type of ID card to have a service dog. I guess In an ideal world, businesses would kick out the wild pets. But I think that most businesses are too scared to do that. My two concerns are these I want owner trainers who have well-trained and well behaved service dogs to have the same rights of access as anybody else. And there are dogs that are trained by fantastic schools that turn into heathens once their owners get them home. How do we handle that?
>> Tara
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jun 11, 2019, at 6:21 AM, Paul Harpur via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Tonight there was an hour long analysis of the practices and laws on disability assistance animals in Australia.  The wording of the laws mirror the Fair Housing Act and you can see similar issues and different proposals for reform: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/australia-s-laws-failing-to-keep-up-with-the-rise-of-assistance-animals
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr Paul Harpur
>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of Australia (non-practicing)
>>> Fulbright Future Scholar<https://www.fulbright.org.au/current-scholars/>/International Distinguished Fellow<https://www.google.com.au/search?source=hp&ei=dosPXJDEFdO89QOTu47IDw&q=burton+blatt+institute+harpur&btnK=Google+Search&oq=burton+blatt+institute+harpur&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160l2.1230.4556..4826...0.0..1.294.6039.0j15j14......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0j35i39j0i131j0i22i30j0i22i10i30.B7g_g7X_Ck4>, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York.
>>> Senior Lecturer
>>>
>>> TC Beirne School of Law
>>> The University of Queensland
>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia
>>>
>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609
>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au<mailto:p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au> TCB Profile<https://law.uq.edu.au/paul-harpur>/Google Citation Page <https://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=6Y47my0AAAAJ&hl=en>
>>> CRICOS code: 00025B
>>>
>>> [https://omc.uq.edu.au/files/4097/UQEmailBannerGeneric.jpg]
>>>
>>>
>>> Scientia ac Labore
>>>
>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland.
>>>
>>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 16:00:09 +1200
>> From: "Bonnie Mosen" <bonnie at mosen.org>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
>> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: "'Tracy Carcione'" <carcione at access.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's
>> 	laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>> Message-ID: <003601d520d3$56cfb9a0$046f2ce0$@mosen.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Hi Tracy and others. I can't speak for Australia, but I can tell you how it works here in NZ.
>> I moved here six years ago with my then 6-yo black Lab, Lizzie from The Seeing Eye.
>> In February, I trained with my current dog, Eclipse, at TSE.
>> NZ does have a small school which is a member of the International Guide Dog Federation.
>> Any guide dog, whether it be owner trained or from a standard school has to be certified to work in NZ by the NZ guide dog school.
>> This also allows follow-up from an NZ guide dog trainer as follow-up from a US school isn't possible.
>> My understanding this is the case for all other service dogs. They have to be certified by whatever school here in NZ would train that sort of dog.
>>>  From what I have heard, emotional support animals just aren't really recognized here.
>> Thankfully, we don't have the issue of fake service animals yet, and I'm hoping our strict certification is the reason why.
>> Eclipse wears a medallion from the NZ school, but I have never been challenged on her legitimacy as a service animal.
>> I do have to have a follow-up annually with a guide dog instructor here, and I can get assistance with learning new routes or with training issues.
>> They have been very accepting of my decision to continue to train with dogs from the US, and I don't feel I have been treated any different.
>> Cheers
>> Bonnie and Eclipse
>> I know of one owner trainer here, and that person did have to have their dog certified by the guide dog school.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 June 2019 12:48 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>>
>> It's my understanding that, at least for guide dogs, it's different in Australia, the UK, and lots of other countries, than it is here in the US.  There's only one guide dog school there, with several branches.  I'm not sure owner-trained dogs are "legal".  It seems to me that the guide dog school clamps down hard on any competition.  So, for guide dogs, the school would issue an ID, and that would be that.
>> I'd really like to know if my understanding is correct.
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tara Briggs via NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 8:37 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Tara Briggs
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] National TV and on-line on demand: Australia's laws failing to keep up with the rise of assistance animals
>>
>> Thank you for sharing this Paul. I am beginning to wonder if this is a good idea. For those who haven?t read the article, it basically argues for some type of certification essentially saying you need to have a drivers license type of ID card to have a service dog. I guess In an ideal world, businesses would kick out the wild pets. But I think that most businesses are too scared to do that. My two concerns are these I want owner trainers who have well-trained and well behaved service dogs to have the same rights of access as anybody else. And there are dogs that are trained by fantastic schools that turn into heathens once their owners get them home. How do we handle that?
>> Tara
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jun 11, 2019, at 6:21 AM, Paul Harpur via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Tonight there was an hour long analysis of the practices and laws on
>>> disability assistance animals in Australia.  The wording of the laws
>>> mirror the Fair Housing Act and you can see similar issues and
>>> different proposals for reform:
>>> https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/australia-s-laws-failing-to-keep-u
>>> p-with-the-rise-of-assistance-animals
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr Paul Harpur
>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of
>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar<https://www.fulbright.org.au/current-scholars/>/International Distinguished Fellow<https://www.google.com.au/search?source=hp&ei=dosPXJDEFdO89QOTu47IDw&q=burton+blatt+institute+harpur&btnK=Google+Search&oq=burton+blatt+institute+harpur&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160l2.1230.4556..4826...0.0..1.294.6039.0j15j14......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0j35i39j0i131j0i22i30j0i22i10i30.B7g_g7X_Ck4>, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York.
>>> Senior Lecturer
>>>
>>> TC Beirne School of Law
>>> The University of Queensland
>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia
>>>
>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609
>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au<mailto:p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au> TCB
>>> Profile<https://law.uq.edu.au/paul-harpur>/Google Citation Page
>>> <https://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=6Y47my0AAAAJ&hl=en>
>>> CRICOS code: 00025B
>>>
>>> [https://omc.uq.edu.au/files/4097/UQEmailBannerGeneric.jpg]
>>>
>>>
>>> Scientia ac Labore
>>>
>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The University of Queensland.
>>>
>>>
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