[NAGDU] Crate training

Fri Mar 8 02:52:28 UTC 2019

It is amazing how different dogs are!  My first guide dog--a very smart dog--would destroy things in the house if she was bored or trying to get back at me.  She also did not like to be corrected and would sulk for hours after she got a correction.  Dogs are so different.  We can't blame it all on the puppy raisers.

Sherri

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sherry Gomes via NAGDU
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2019 4:34 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sherry Gomes <sherry.gomes at outlook.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Crate training

Actually, I agree with Cindy. One of my dogs, the smartest dog I ever had, also had incredible raisers who were excellent with her. They did everything right. But this dog, though she was the best guide dog I ever had, she was a terror in the house. If she got bored, her smart little brain found things to do. It landed her in the emergency room multiple times, and I was amazed she lived to be 13 and a half years old. And I dog-proofed like I'd never had to dog proof in my life before. Even the field managers from the school agreed I was doing everything right. It was just the dog. I never blamed the raisers. I became friends with them and knew how diligent they were when raising puppies. It was just the dog. 

Sherry

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sandra Johnson via NAGDU
Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2019 2:21 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sandra Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Crate training

Cindy:

I think many of us who have had to deal with dogs who had undesirable behaviors will have to disagree with you.  As graduates we must hold the raisers to a very high standard.  They commit to raise a puppy that is going on to become a guide dog.  We all expect our guides to have excellent behaviors.  Most behaviors and personality traits begin during puppyhood. 
Therefore it is very important that the puppy be taught right from wrong and how to live and behave properly.  The trainers have only a few months to train the dog to guide.  They do not take the dogs home so they have no way of knowing if there are any problems.  I once had a dog who almost got sent back to the school because she had serious housebreaking issues.  It was the puppy raiser who was responsible for housebreaking the dog.  The trainers were very frustrated when the problems persisted for the first six months after graduation.  Finally the puppy raiser admitted that they were unable to stop her from relieving herself in the house.  In that case they should have contacted the school to let them know they had a problem.  It is the responsibility of the raiser to keep in contact with the school and the schools responsibility to supervise the raisers so issues can be resolved. 
I am sure if you asked, many people on this list will tell you horror stories.

Sandra and Eva

-----Original Message-----  From: Cindy Ray via     NAGDU
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2019 3:56 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Cindy Ray
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Crate training

I think that this is an unbased judgment unless you have supporting facts. 
If you have done research on it, and if you have found the puppy raising to be wanting, then you can make statements like this. I think we need to take care about making judgment statements such as this. Dogs that weren’t raised in crates chew, get sick, and all of that. There are other reasons for these things. Please let’s not judge puppy raisers when we don’t honestly know across the board what is going on. I have a dog here who is probably chewing because she is a little bored (not a guide by the way), but there are lots of reasons why dogs might exhibit behaviors such as this.
Cindy Lou Ray
Cindyray at gmail.com

Cindy Lou Ray
Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 7, 2019, at 2:24 PM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>
> Tracy:
>
> I hear your frustration and I agree, I think too many raisers are 
> depending on the crate instead of spending time teaching the puppy 
> what is right and wrong.  When I began using guide dogs in 1975 there 
> was never any discussion of using crates.  The dogs were expected to 
> be well behaved in the house and it was the puppy raisers job to teach 
> them.  It is very rough on a graduate to have to deal with accidents 
> in the house and other destructive behaviors.
>
> Sandra and Eva
> -----Original Message----- Tie-downs were only recommended to be used 
> for the first few weeks.
> From: Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2019 1:15 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: Tracy Carcione
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Crate training
>
> I'm not opposed to people using crates, if they want to.  I even use 
> it, since I had to buy it, but very seldom now. I'm not crazy about 
> it, personally, but I see it can be useful sometimes.
> I'm sure crates can be very helpful in puppy-raising, too.  I know a 
> puppy-raiser, and she puts the pup in the crate for nap time, or when 
> she has to go out and leave the pup alone for a couple hours.  Fine.  
> The pup is free in the house quite a lot, and behaves pretty well for 
> a wild young thing.  I just wonder if some raisers give their pups 
> less freedom in the house.  But I'll never know.
> The bottom line for me is I want a reasonably civilized dog when I 
> bring it home, one I can keep on leash for 2 or 3 weeks, gradually 
> giving it more freedom.  Close supervision for weeks, not months. And 
> preferably no pesky crate taking up space in my already full house.
> Tracy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle 
> Sykora via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2019 12:17 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Danielle Sykora
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Crate training
>
> I can certainly understand the frustration with a guide dog that 
> doesn’t have house behavior as well as you would expect. And of 
> course, it’s frustrating  to have to teach the dog something they 
> theoretically should have already learned. I respect people‘s 
> decisions to use whatever method they want with their guide dogs. If 
> the dog does well  free in the house or on tie down, then of course don’t use a crate if you don’t like them.
> My point in my original message though is that it is a different story 
> for puppy raisers. It’s great if you get an adult dog from a program 
> with perfect house behavior from day one and ideally this would be the 
> case with every dog. Razors are working with young immature teething 
> puppies though. There is absolutely no way you can get an eight week 
> old puppy and have it free in the house from day one. You need to use 
> a crate, tie down, or both in some situations. For most situations, 
> both would work equally well. For housebreaking, chewing, and 
> sometimes when living in a multi dog household, the crate does have 
> the advantage of a physical barrier that the tiedown does not.
> Personally, I  use the crate, tiedown, baby gates, or nothing at all 
> with my dogs depending on the individual dog in the situation. Every 
> dog I have raised from a puppy is comfortable in the crate because it 
> is simply the best way of keeping tempting objects out of their reach and housebreaking.
> Both of my guides were accustomed to the crate and tie down as 
> puppies, and gradually given more and more freedom as they grew up . I 
> put one of my dogs in a crate when he’s left alone, because he is a 
> scavenger and I’ve had too many situations where other people put food 
> in his reach even when he’s on a tiedown or  he figured out how to get 
> hidden food in a drawer or whatever. People are not as trainable as 
> dogs, in the intelligence that made him an excellent guide also makes 
> him very good at finding food. I often put my dogs in crates when I 
> give them a puzzle toy so that the other dogs don’t bother them.  That 
> being said, I often use tiedowns in other situations and my adult dogs 
> that are settled into my home are free in the house the vast majority of the time.
>
> Danielle
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Mar 7, 2019, at 11:41 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> What I really mind is that I had to spend $90 to buy a crate I don't 
>> want in order to keep the dog from destroying things when I could not 
>> supervise him or keep him on leash.  I really hate it when I feel 
>> like I'm forced to buy something I don't really want.
>> And, for me, crates don't make great home décor.  I'm happy to say he 
>> mostly outgrew chewing, and now the crate is stored under the bed and 
>> only taken out on rare occasions.
>> Tracy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray 
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 4:41 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Crate training
>>
>> Well, as Ruth said, the crate is a matter of preference. I would 
>> prefer it to a tie down because they can’t get tangled up in a crate. 
>> I like them, personally, and so does my dog. But you can abuse 
>> anything. Some people abuse the baby swing. It isn’t the swing that 
>> that is bad, it is the poor judgment perhaps of the person who over 
>> uses it to entertain the baby. The same goes with the crate. If used 
>> properly, it is a place that a dog can come to enjoy if familiar 
>> things are in it and if it hasn’t been used for punishment. It is a place that is sort of a safe haven.
>> Over used it is not these things, but the schools having switched to 
>> these is far more humane than the tie down in my opinion, though 
>> Fisher is fine with either. He was clearly crate trained, but we were 
>> still using tie downs when I got him. So since this is a matter of 
>> preference, and since we have varying notions as to how they should 
>> be used, let us not turn this into a crate vs. none debate, along 
>> with judging puppy raisers when for the most part we don’t know what they do in this regard.
>> Also, we must always appreciate the many good things the pup raisers do.
>>
>> Cindy Lou Ray, Moderator
>> Cindyray at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> Cindy Lou Ray
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Mar 6, 2019, at 2:56 PM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello:
>>>
>>> I understand that many guide dog handlers use crates.  However, I do 
>>> think some of the puppy raisers use it so much that the dog does not 
>>> have enough opportunities to learn proper behavior.  I have never 
>>> felt the need to use a crate with any of my guide dogs.  If a bad 
>>> behavior did occur I immediately dealt with it and the dog quickly 
>>> learned what was expected.  When I got Eva from Pilot five years ago 
>>> they had crates in the rooms.  It broke my heart to put her in the 
>>> crate.  I think crates are extremely cruel.  She cried pitifully and 
>>> I felt like I had put my precious golden pup into prison.  Her 
>>> trainer admitted that Eva hated being in her crate and he had a 
>>> tough time training her to get in it.  I knew I would never use a 
>>> crate after class so, I just let her lye next to my bed on a fleece blanket I had brought to class for her.
>>>
>>> Sandra and the always free in the house Eva -----Original 
>>> Message----- From: sunshine via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 1:28 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Cc: sunshine
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Crosses
>>>
>>>> I would put most of the blame on the owner not the crate. Crates 
>>>> are great, but they are not intended to be used as a place to put 
>>>> the dog at all times. My dog is only in the crate under certain circumstances.
>>>> Some dogs like the crate. It's a safe haven. I have a dog that is 
>>>> over-zealous when people come to visit. Some time in the crate 
>>>> eliminates the issue of my dog's attempt to jump on people. After 
>>>> friends or family are here a while, my dog is taken out of the crate.
>>>> As long as no one rials her up, she does fine.
>>>
>>>
>>> It's a matter of preference. Some people never use a crate, though 
>>> they do tie their dogs down. There are times when we might crate our dogs.
>>> Even when I leave home, my dog doesn't need to be crated. She likes 
>>> going to it and has since I've had her.
>>>
>>> Sunshine
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone XR
>>>
>>>> On Mar 6, 2019, at 8:39 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU 
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I put part of the blame on the crate training that's 
>>>> all the rage these days.  Can't watch the puppy?  Put him in his 
>>>> crate, and forget about it.  So the puppy doesn't learn to behave 
>>>> without someone keeping a close eye on it every minute.  Not a fan of crate training.
>>>> Seems more like crate not-training to me.
>>>> Tracy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lisa via 
>>>> NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 11:37 AM
>>>> To: Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
>>>> Cc: Lisa
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Crosses
>>>>
>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am only on my first guide dog, so can't compare several dogs. But 
>>>> my dog is a pure lab and had all of Krokus' habits in the early 
>>>> days. It took a lot of patience and time to teach him how to behave 
>>>> in the house but it worked well.
>>>>
>>>> I'd say rather than being a cross thing, it's a matter of 
>>>> socialization.
>>>> Obviously, the family where Taylor grew up before he started 
>>>> training wasn't so keen on good house manners. But I don't know 
>>>> what it's like in the US, where the puppies are before they start 
>>>> proper training.
>>>>
>>>> Lisa
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Am 05.03.2019 um 16:48 schrieb Tracy Carcione via NAGDU:
>>>>> Krokus is a lab/golden cross.  He was quite young when I got him, 
>>>>> and did his best to chew up as many of my possessions as he could.  
>>>>> If I tried to put things out of his reach, he'd find something to 
>>>>> climb on to get at stuff. I was *not happy.
>>>>> I just talked to a friend who recently got a cross and is having a 
>>>>> very similar problem.  Is this a cross thing?
>>>>> Krokus is my seventh guide dog, and I never had such a chewer 
>>>>> before, but I never had a cross before, either.  It's really not 
>>>>> something I want to deal with.  He eventually grew out of it, 
>>>>> mostly, but getting to this stage was not fun.  Well, great fun 
>>>>> for him, none for me.
>>>>> If it's a cross thing, I'll say next time I don't want one, even 
>>>>> if I have to wait, as there are so many of the crosses now.
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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