[NAGDU] King of the Creepers

Wed May 22 18:32:45 UTC 2019

Tracy,

I definitely was not trying to talk about you or anyone else
specifically in my previous messages. I was just trying to generally
explain some of the appropriate situations in which to use treats to
optimize performance vs. situations where handlers tend to use them
incorrectly as a crutch, giving food rewards a bad reputation.

Creeping up to targets or obstacles is often associated with a lack of
confidence. Both of my dogs' favorite part of guiding is targeting.
however, Jackie creeps up to down curbs or obstacles every once in a
while for example if she didn't clear the obstacle correctly the last
time, or got a correction for taking one step too far into the street.
Thai would creep up to a few specific doors because people would often
open them really quickly without paying attention and hit him or me.

I wouldn't expect a "city dog" to struggle with confidence though
unless there was a particular negative experience, so it might be a
different reason.

The clicker is usually a great tool for targeting and confidence
building, because it provides a high rate of reinforcement, precise
clarity on the behavior, and gives the dog a sense of control without
the possibility of being corrected for making a mistake. No tool is
ever going to work for every dog in every situation though. If the
clicker does not provide lasting results, then it probably isn't the
right tool. I don't necessarily think it would be a bad thing to
provide the occasional food reward for targeting if the dog clearly
isn't particularly enjoying it. Sometimes you need to do what
motivates a particular dog in a particular situation. Now if he will
*only* target if you have treats on you, that is an issue.

I really hope you are able to get some helpful suggestions during
follow up. I would definitely be interested to know if you find a
solution.

Danielle, Thai, and Jackie

On 5/22/19, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi Kerri.
> I knew I wasn't alone, but it's nice to have confirmation.
> It's good you know the cause of your girl's creeping.  Might make it easier
> to fix.
> I'm guessing Krokus creeps because he's a bit lazy.  He wants me to drop
> the
> harness and heel him.  He wants me to do the work.  I try to resist, but
> sometimes I just can't deal with the creeping.  Self-defeating, I know.
>
> Too bad the king can't meet the queen!  He loves playing with shepherds.
> Tracy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shawn and Kerri
> Sprecher via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2019 1:21 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Shawn and Kerri Sprecher; Tracy Carcione
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] King of the Creepers
>
> Hello Tracy and list,
> Thank you for writing this message, it was exactly what I needed to
> hear. I am going through the exact same thing; Iris, my German
> Shepherd, is one of the smartest and most intelligent guides I have
> ever had, and in class she showed that she would definitely stop at
> the down curb or walk right up to a door. Well, there was an uneven
> spot in one of the routes we took during training, and I didn't get
> hurt thankfully, but I did stumble and have to catch myself with my
> other foot, which made her yelp. She's very sensitive to me and I have
> never had a dog yelp when I stumbled or fell due to them not slowing
> down enough. I actually thought I'd stepped on her but the instructo
> said that my foot was nowhere near close enough to her foot to elicit
> a yelp like that, so he said the only thing it probably could be is
> that she feels a great deal of responsibility for me, and she was
> showing concern for me. The instructor said that he's seen several
> other shepherds do the same thing.
> Well, after that stumble, now she is almost too careful, wanting to
> avoid down curbs or stairs as much as she possibly can, and  I have
> thought about starting click and treat as well, because she seemed to
> respond well to it in class with finding things and such, so I know
> she's really good at clicker activities.
> Anyway, I just wanted you to know that I have the queen of creepers to
> mmatch the king of creepers. smile
> I'll be interested to know how this goes, if you're ok informing us
> about the outcome or any techniques they're having you try.
> Talk soon,
> Kerri
>
> On 5/22/19, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Danielle seemed to be wondering why I'd need to carry treats in the
>> office
>> anyway, so I may as well say.  Krokus is the King of the Creepers.  He
>> often
>> stops 5 or 6 feet short of where I want to go, especially in the office.
> I
>> tried getting really happy when we arrive, and I tried correcting him,
>> but
>> he still stops short and I either have to drop the harness and heel him
>> or
>> get him to creep slowly up to where I want to go.  Really annoying.
>>
>> I asked my school for advice, and they said click-and-treat, which I did.
>> But, once the king sees he's not getting a treat this time, he goes back
> to
>> creeping.  So I've been randomly treating, which somewhat fixes the
>> problem,
>> though I suspect he's smart enough to know when I have treats with me and
>> when I don't.  Rather a pain.  I don't want to keep carrying treats, and
>> I
>> don't want to stop short, either.  I'm getting some follow-up with
>> another
>> issue soon, so I'll ask about this, too.  I just bet there's a note on my
>> file at the school that says "will put up with any amount of crap, so
>> give
>> her the problem child".
>>
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>>
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