[NAGDU] Question Regarding Guide Dog Schools

Mon Oct 26 13:24:43 UTC 2020

Good morning. Well, the first thing I would suggest is to examine why you want a German Shepherd. I personally, strongly prefer German Shepherd‘s. There are definite differences between the breeds. They all have pros and cons, and they all meet the needs of different handler’s. So it’s not a matter of goldens are better than labs, or Shepherd’s are better than goldens, it’s a matter of shepherds are better for some people, labs for others, goldens for others, and of course there are other breeds as well. I sometimes described German Shepherd’s as the biggest risks with potentially some of the biggest rewards, but they are a lot of work. They are very bright, and they like to show it, labradors and goldens are also bright, they wouldn’t be Guide Dogs if they weren’t, but German Shepherd’s have an extra degree in many cases, not all, of initiative, but they can also have an extra degree of neuroticism. They want to work, I will put the caveat out there that every single dog is different, does Brede matter, absolutely. But there are exceptions to every rule, and every dog is an individual. Their breed matters, as does their age, their sex, the school they were trained at, the puppy raisers, the trainer, and the handler. So I will be using generalizations, but just know, that there are some German Shepherd’s who act a lot more like goldens, there are some golden to act like labs, there are some labs who act like Shepherd’s, and every permutation of variation is out there. Whatever school you use, being able to put into words why you want to German Shepherd will be useful. If you go to The Seeing Eye, or Guiding Eyes For The also is ramping up their shepherd program, you’ll need to convince them that shepherd is what you really and truly want, and need, and if they understand the qualities you’re looking for, they’re more likely to honor your request. If you go to a school like GDB that does not offer Shepherd‘s, they may be able to find you a lab or golden or cross that has many of the characteristics of a German Shepherd, if you’re clear on what those are. For instants, and I would recommend this to anyone, going to any school, wanting any breed of dog, have a list of your must haves and your can’t stand. Everyone will have different must haves, and different can’t stance, knowing what your deal breakers are, is very important. For instance, for some people, scavenging is a dealbreaker, they don’t have the energy to be constantly fighting with the dog about scavenging, they have small children in the house who drop food, but, they are willing to put up with a very vocal dog who can just not seem to shut up. They get excited about everything and their mouth start squeaking. For other people, squeaking and whining and carrying on is a dealbreaker, they work in a library, or they are lawyer and they are in court much of the day, and I just can’t have the noise, but, they don’t mind keeping on top of their dog about scavenging, and they don’t have messy children in their house to drop food, so scavenging is not a dealbreaker but being very vocal is. So for instance, I told The Seeing Eye when I made a case for why I wanted a shepherd that I was looking for “a dog with a lot of initiative, a dog who will keep throwing solutions at me, and not get discouraged if the first couple are not correct, a dog who is very bright, and likes working for the sake of working, a dog who can be a little obnoxious but will never fail to make their needs known, since I have a busy household, when the dog wants out, I want them to throw fit, if I miss dinner, I want them to drop the bowl on my head, if they are in pain I want them to complain so I can take them to the vet immediately. I am willing to deal with a dog who is vocal, I am willing to deal with a dog who is playful, and high energy, but I am not willing to deal with a dog who is constantly scavenging, and I wanna dog was very clicker savvy. “ your feelings may be very different from mine, and whatever they are, I would recommend you journal, figure them out, distill that to one paragraph, and present that to whatever school, or schools you apply to. To clarify the shepherd issue, one generalization I will offer that can be helpful to conceptualize Shepherd’s, but should not be taken as gospel for all dogs all of the time, is that labradors and goldens work because they love you, if they love you, they will do the work. Shepherd’s, love the work, they come to love you because you give them the work. Again, caveats all over the place, every dog is different.

For home training, the last I was aware, and you should absolutely call The Seeing Eye to clarify, is that they offer home training but only for students who have gotten dogs from them before. I love The Seeing Eye, and I often recommend it, but I recognize that my favorite school is not perfect, absolutely no school is perfect, and one of my frustrations was that, when I was a parent with a baby at home, having had shepherds from Fidelco, and haven’t worked Guide Dogs since the age of 16, and I asked them to please provide me home training, they absolutely refused. They said that was their policy, and I had to come in the class, no exceptions. I did eventually go to The Seeing Eye, but I was angry, I was a mom with a baby at home who is still nursing, and family members with other special needs, and I was an experienced guy dog handler, and they absolutely would not make an exception for me. I am a question are by nature, so hard and fast, black and white policies tend to make me angry. They may have change this policy, so it is definitely worth asking. Whatever feedback you get for me or anyone else on the list, I would always recommend calling a school or emailing them for the most up-to-date information on their policies. When you read a training blog, or get advice from a graduate, always check in with the school, as things may have changed since that person was in class, myself included. With regards Fidelco, there have been major changes recently. I would recommend you read the braille monitor article written about Fidelco, but also bear in mind that that was a while ago. Every single school changes over time, substandard programs can improve drastically, fantastic programs can go downhill, sometimes changes by directional, perhaps the breeding program improves but the in class experience declines, maybe the training improves, but the follow up declines. Also, even with a great program, you can still have a bad match, or run into a trainer who is not so great at their job, even at a lower quality program, you can wind up with a fantastic dog, and a great dedicated trainer, and ultimately have a great working dog. There are so many factors involved. The issues that I have witnessed with Fidelco and that most people have been frustrated with surround transparency, and accountability, as well as consistency. However there has been a change in leader ship, which may, or may not, have resolved some, or all of these issues. There are some limitations to home training, this isn’t specific to Fidelco, this would apply to Freedom or any other home training situation. If you have a trainer you get along with that’s great, if the trainer doing your home placement and you do not jive well, then you’re stuck with them, whereas in class, if there was truly a conflict of personalities, there is a potential to switch to another trainer if if you wind up with a dog that is not a good match, at a large school, or an in class situation, the options to do a dog switch, complete the training, and go home with a guy dog, or fairly high. With a small school, or a home training program, if the match is not good, then you may have to do a dog switch that results in a gap of many months before another dog is brought to you for training in your home area. If you live in a home area that has urban, suburban, and rural venues in close proximity, then you can get a very complete training experience with home training. If you do not, for instance if you live in the middle of New York City, or if you live way out in the boondocks, then going to an on-campus training program that provides access to all three major environments, is a clear benefit. Also, the factors that can make home training necessary, can also make it less effective. For instance, if you are caring for aging parents, if you have small children, if you have a demanding and complicated family situation, then home training allows you to continue to care for these individuals, however, it also means that you will be more distracted from bonding with and learning about your new dog. Going away to class takes you out of that situation so you can focus on your dog and build a good foundation, but, it’s all so much more of an inconvenience to have to make arrangements for the people you are leaving behind.

In terms of German shepherds, if you go to Fidelco, you’re guaranteed to get a German Shepherd, because that is literally all they have. At The Seeing Eye, approximately a third of the dogs they produce or Shepherd’s, it can go as low as 20% or range closer to 40, depending on how productive the litters are each year and how successful the members of those litters are, but it’s around 30%. And if you have a good reason, they tend to be accommodating of giving you a shepherd if that’s what you really want and you can advocate for yourself. Fidelco has a much longer waiting list than The Seeing Eye, however, if you only want a German Shepherd, the wait time at The Seeing Eye will go up, and be more comparable to that of Fidelco. Guiding eyes is working on rejuvenating their German shepherd program, another school called Gallant Hearts, which offers home training, has German Shepherd‘s. And a few other schools have small numbers of shepherds available. The German shepherds will vary from one program to another, just as the labradors and goldens will vary. There are also trends that come and go. For instance, Fidelco seems to have a large number of sable Shepherd’s, with comparison to other schools with shepherds, and, they also tend to have a lot of the fluffier coated shepherds, although, I got a coded shepherd from The Seeing Eye my first time around. Both schools have very beautiful German Shepherd‘s, in general, and again, variation, the Fidelco Shepherd‘s tend to look a little bit more European, a little longer point to your muscles, a little bigger ears, a little more slender, a little bit different in Build, and The Seeing Eye shepherds, tend to be more of a mix, not as blocky, and no sloped backs like in American lines, but also not as wolfish, or slender, or pointy, as European lines. When you get reviews from people on the two schools, you’re likely to hear some horror stories, some frustration where a dog from a particular school had problems. This is definitely a significant thing to consider, but I always urge people to consider how the problem was resolved. Every single school, no exceptions, makes that matches sometimes, puts out dogs with problems. The important factor is, how does the school handle it when they mess up, or when life happens and something goes wrong, even if it’s not their fault. I find it much more instructive to see how a school handles a problem then to get a review from someone saying that the school is perfect and has no problems. Remember, that if you see an example of a dog, add an NFB, or an ACV convention, or another presentation, bear in mind, that whatever dog is there, it’s one of their best, they put their most photogenic, well-behaved dogs. With good responsible handlers at these events, so you’re seeing the best of the best. They’re going to be putting out some dogs that aren’t the same, and in some ways that aren’t as good, so bear in mind that you are seeing, they are highlighting, some of their best product. Also bear in mind the source, when you’re reading a training blog, or getting advice from someone on a listserv, if you know them as a person, taking into account, if they tend to be a very critical negative person, then maybe take their criticism with a grain of salt. If they tend to be a very positive, upbeat person who sees the best in everyone and every situation, then consider that there may be problems below the surface that they haven’t noticed or are not choosing to share. Beware of five star and one star reviews. If someone has nothing but negative to say about a school, or nothing but positive to share, then they probably have very strong emotions regarding the school they are reviewing. When I look at a product or service, I find the reviews that fall between two and four stars tend to be the most helpful. The reviews that have at least one pro and at least one con tend to be the most helpful.

Nag do does not endorse or condemn any school in particular. We don’t recommend that you attend or avoid any schools. We gather information sometimes, and our members have experiences they can share, from various schools, but we do not officially make recommendations for any particular program. Also, I recognize that my needs are not everyone else’s needs. For instance, at this time, The Seeing Eye is my personal favorite school, but I also recognize that they are not perfect, they have put out bad matches, they have made poor choices, and they do not meet everyone’s needs. And I also recognize that my least favorite school, does meet some people‘s needs, and has put out some fantastic dogs. With so many parts in the machine, dogs, kennel staff, puppy raisers, trainers, clerical and maintenance staff, other students in class, and you the handler, there are many opportunities for greatness and for disaster at every single school in this country. I can share my own personal experience, and that is the Cliff Notes version below.

I got my first dog at age 16 from Guiding Eyes For The Blind, a yellow lab that was not a good match for me. She was silly, not motivated to work, preferred men to women, and I struggled with her for two years before deciding to retire her. I wanted to change, so I went to Fidelco. I received a brilliant, neurotic, wonderful, terrible, dog. She was my heart dog, she was my most and least favorite dog rolled into one, she was one of the best workers I’ve ever had, but she had issues with a strong hurting Dr., she was fiercely bonded to me, and wasn’t aggressive, but she wanted to keep the group together, she was very vocal, and very high strong, when she was working, she was amazing. She had to retire, because she was nipping, not biting, but nipping at people, trying to herd them, as if they were cattle or sheep. The second dog I received from Fidelco was pretty much perfect. That dog bonded with my husband who has posttraumatic stress disorder, I almost never let him care for her or play with her, but I think she was a psychiatric service dog at heart, I am a pretty independent and strong willed person, and I think that my dog concluded that my husband needed her more. I do not blame the school at all for having given me such a sweet and empathic dog who wanted to help my husband with his symptoms, who picked up on things like his nightmares, and his moods, however, I felt penalized because I was blamed for the problem. I was criticized for letting him feed her and play with her too much. Even though, he never fed or watered her, never took her for walks, and never really played with her. He put her occasionally, out of harness, and that was it. When I went into the hospital to have my baby, my mother cared for her, not my husband. She bonded with him, and was distracted by him when she was supposed to be working with me, even though he went out of his way to very little interaction with  her. Being able to communicate with your school, to trust them, and have them trust you, to work out problems when they arise, because they will arise, with any school, big, or small, you need to be able to have a collaborative approach to solving the problem. In hindsight, which is of course, 2020, I should have kept the dog, since under the ownership policy at that time I did still have ownership of her, and trained her to become his psychiatric service dog, and then going to another school to get a guide dog for myself. Also, bear in mind, this was over 10 years ago, the same caveat applies to my story as to anyone else’s, a lot can change in 10 years, or even five, and in some cases even in one year. I want to see Fidelco succeed, because they breed German Shepherd’s, when many schools have given up on them. Heck, I want to see every school succeed, because we need a variety of diverse Guide Dogs available, with home training and on campus training, with labs and shepherds and goldens, and other breeds to, we need schools bred and raised in cold climates and in hot humid climates. So I hope that issues they have had in the past have been resolved are in the process of being resolved, or will be resolved in the future. I hope you get a lot of useful feedback here on list, you can also check out the Facebook group, and, look for training blogs from people attending the schools you’re interested in. And of course, if you have a targeted list of questions, you can call the schools and ask.

Life is short, time is limited, dictation is wonderful, and imperfect. Please excuse any errors in this email. Sent from my iPhone.

> On Oct 25, 2020, at 5:07 PM, Janell via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I have a very good friend with a GS from Fidelco who is an absolute dream of
> a guide dog!  He is a long hair, black male GS that has been a terrific
> guide, could not ask for more out of a guide dog!!  I can hook you up with
> him if you are interested, you can email me off line at:
> nellie at culodge.com
> 
> Good luck in whatever school you decide on, Janell and Miss Rosy from
> Occupaws out of Madison Wi
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Megan Borella via NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 3:19 PM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Megan Borella <meganborella at gmail.com>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Question Regarding Guide Dog Schools
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I am in the process of choosing a guide dog school to apply to in order to
> obtain my first guide, and was hoping to receive input from recent graduates
> regarding the programs I am considering. I would very much like to work with
> a German Shepherd, but have found that options for this breed are more
> limited than I had expected. I live in California, and no schools in my
> vicinity breed German Shepherds, which is why Fidelco's program caught my
> eye. Their in-home training was also of interest to me, as I would prefer to
> not have to go to a program in a different state for an extended period of
> time.
> 
> However, as I have conducted more thorough research, stories I have heard
> about Fidelco, its policies, and the quality of the guides it has produced
> in the past decade have raised some serious concerns. Does anyone know if
> Fidelco has undergone any improvements? Is their program worth applying to?
> I also know that the Seeing Eye is another school that specializes in German
> Shepherds, although I do not know if they would be willing to conduct
> in-home training. Has anyone graduated from their program recently who might
> be able to provide feedback?
> 
> Finally, I live very near Guide Dogs for the Blind, Inc., which I have heard
> nothing but wonderful things about. I have visited their campus and adopted
> one of their dogs through their career change program, and she could not
> have been any better. My only hesitation about applying to their program is
> that they do not breed German shepherds. Either way, the quality of the dog
> matters to me more than the breed. Does anyone have any thoughts on whether
> the quality of the schools that do specialize in German shepherds is high
> enough to warrant submitting an application?
> Thank you so much,
> Megan
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