[NAGDU] difficulty with completing form for traveling with my guide dog

Wed Mar 10 12:23:35 UTC 2021

Hi,
Just stopping by with my input on this. I printed the DOT form out and
brought it when flying last weekend and had no issue with Southwest.
The woman going asked me for it but the one going back never even
asked. It seems easy enough. My friend flew with Spirit to our
gathering and they asked her for it. She advisd them that the form was
not accessible on the spirit site and they helped her fill it out at
the gate. They did not seem like they wanted too but they did with
minimal fuss.
Jessica

On 2/27/21, Susan Jones via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Why can't we insist that the airlines, if they insist on requiring a form,
> link to the accessible DOT form?
> If I owned an airline, I should think in any case that my resources would be
> far better spent than trying to reproduce a form that already exists.
>
> Susan
>
> sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Mike Hingson via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2021 4:31 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: mike at michaelhingson.com; 'Tracy Carcione' <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] difficulty with completing form for traveling with my
> guide dog
>
> Sort of agree. The first thing is that the airlines are the ones who choose
> whether or not to use the forms. They are NOT an absolute requirement of the
> DOT. The only mandate from the DOT is that the forms DOT provides are the
> ones that must be used. So, the airlines, if they use the forms, are doing
> so to get information. There is nothing except for morality, inclusion, the
> airlines' so-called views about diversity and the law  that require that
> they make the forms accessible. Today it is not so much an excuse that blind
> people cannot use computers well. Computers are a part of society.
>
> However, the DOT does say that for reservations made within 48 hours of the
> date of travel the forms can be completed at the ticket counter, I believe.
> Not sure about the gate.
>
> The NFB should be all over each airline requiring the form to make that form
> usable, functional and accessible by blind persons. I urge our leaders to
> begin systematic collection of data about inaccessible forms and provide it
> regularly to airlines and to the DOT, the agency that gave into the airlines
> and that created these forms. We may not be able to sue the airlines under
> the ADA since they seem to like to be consider themselves covered by the
> ACAA, but I even wonder if that is true since the inaccessible forms we are
> being required to complete are on web sites utilized long before we arrive
> at airports. This is a question to be answered by lawyers. However, nothing
> wrong with considering litigating against the DOT through whatever methods
> are available to sue a government agency.
>
> I am going to get these observations to a couple of our leaders who may
> either wish to comment to the group or to email me back and then I will pass
> along what I learn.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Michael Hingson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU On Behalf Of Lyn Gwizdak via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2021 9:49 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Lyn Gwizdak <gwizdaklyn at gmail.com>; Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] difficulty with completing form for traveling with my
> guide dog
>
> Hi folks,
> In my humble opinion, if the airlines are going to demand we fill out those
> forms, they should do it at the gate. Not all guide dog users are super
> computer savvy or have printers. We shouldn't have to have the onus on us;
> put it on the airlines since they are dumb enough to demand this of us. Our
> guide dogs aren't the same as the so-called emotional support dogs that have
> proven to be the problem. Not blind people's trained guide dogs. I'm glad I
> have no plans to fly anywhere. Cant afford that.
>
> Lyn and Aristotle
>
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2021, 7:27 AM Melissa Allman via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I checked their website on Thursday and the form was still not accessible.
>> Hopefully that will change soon.
>>
>>  Mike makes a really good point and I think it would be so much easier
>> if all of the airlines could have the forms available in HTML.  Alaska
>> has already done this and others are exploring it. I don’t know about
>> you all, but I have not figured out a way to complete the PDF form on
>> my phone. Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Feb 27, 2021, at 10:16 AM, Elizabeth Campbell via NAGDU <
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Yes, Mike. You are correct. When I get a minute, I am going to look
>> > at
>> the
>> > American Airlines web site again to see if an accessible form is now
>> > available.
>> >
>> >> On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 10:49 AM Mike Hingson via NAGDU <
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> They sent her a pdf, not a link. That is part of the problem.
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: NAGDU On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2021 8:31 AM
>> >> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> >> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>> >> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] difficulty with completing form for traveling
>> >> with
>> my
>> >> guide dog
>> >>
>> >> Hi Liz.
>> >> So the form that's on American's website is not accessible, but, if
>> >> you persist in pestering them, they will give you a link to one that
>> >> is?
>> Or am
>> >> I not understanding?
>> >> Tracy
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> >> Elizabeth Campbell via NAGDU
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2021 11:14 AM
>> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> >> Cc: Elizabeth Campbell
>> >> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] difficulty with completing form for traveling
>> >> with
>> my
>> >> guide dog
>> >>
>> >> Good morning all, After contacting American Airlines, I got a
>> >> response
>> back
>> >> stating that the vendor assured the company that the form is
>> >> accessible
>> on
>> >> the web site. I advised that I could not complete it properly, even
>> >> with sighted assistance. I then received another email with a link
>> >> to the accessible DOT form. I completed it and submitted the form
>> >> with no difficulty. I now have my service animal ID from American
>> >> which means I don't have to complete forms each time I travel. The
>> >> airlines may not
>> ask
>> >> us
>> >> for the forms, but I would rather have the documentation just in case.
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 9:33 AM Melissa Allman via NAGDU <
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> >>>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hi Mike. I really enjoyed reading about your adventures so far
>> >>> with flying and the forms. I've heard a couple people say they
>> >>> weren't asked
>> >> for them.
>> >>> I agree with you that you should just be able to upload the
>> >>> accessible version of the form from the DOT's web site instead of
>> >>> following the link to the inaccessible one provided by a specific
>> >>> airline. At least one airline representative has stated this
>> >>> recently including at the ACB legislative seminar. Also, DOT has
>> >>> stated in the regs and in a recent webinar that assistance should
>> >>> be provided to fill out the form at the
>> >> gate
>> >>> as a reasonable accommodation unless it constitutes an undue
>> >>> burden, which it could if you get there, say 10 minutes before
>> >>> your flight and it could be delayed.
>> >>>
>> >>> The webinar is at ada-audio.org
>> >>>
>> >>> It's the web site of the Great Lakes ADA Center. You can sign up
>> >>> to listen to their archived webinars from that site but there is
>> >>> no direct link to the webinar so I can't paste that in here.
>> >>>
>> >>> Melissa
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>> >>> Forzano via NAGDU
>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2021 5:09 PM
>> >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>> >>> Users
>> >>> Cc: Michael Forzano
>> >>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] difficulty with completing form for traveling
>> >>> with my guide dog
>> >>>
>> >>> That was my impression as well, so not clear on what the issue is,
>> >>> shouldn't it be accessible so long as the airline is using the
>> >>> latest version of the DOT form?
>> >>>
>> >>> For what it's worth, I've taken 4 flights now since the
>> >>> regulations were implemented and decided to see what might happen
>> >>> if I didn't fill out the form. 3 of the flights were on Delta, out
>> >>> of those I was asked once about the form and advised that it would
>> >>> need to be filled out in the future though I was not asked to fill
>> >>> it out at the gate. The other flight was on American and I was not
>> >>> asked about the form.
>> >>>
>> >>> This may be because the regulations are so  new and agents are
>> >>> letting it slide, or because they don't intend to be so strict
>> >>> about the form with guide dogs are they are so recognizable. Too soon
>> >>> to say.
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm also unclear on how we are expected to fill out the form at
>> >>> the gate in the event of a last minute flight or other issues
>> >>> submitting it in advance?
>> >>> Is accepting assistance from the gate agent considered a
>> >>> reasonable accommodation?
>> >>>
>> >>> Mike
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 12:11 PM Cindy Ray via NAGDU
>> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> I thought the airlines were supposed to use the D.O.T. form.
>> >>>> Cindy
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On Feb 22, 2021, at 7:59 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
>> >>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Hi Mike.
>> >>>>> Like Susan, I had the impression that, if an airline's form
>> >>>>> wasn't accessible, I could use the DOT form instead.  Is that
>> >>>>> not actually the case?
>> >>>>> Tracy
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Susan
>> >>>>> Jones
>> >>>> via
>> >>>>> NAGDU
>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2021 2:39 PM
>> >>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>> >>>>> Users'
>> >>>>> Cc: sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] difficulty with completing form for
>> >>>>> traveling with
>> >>>> my
>> >>>>> guide dog
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> During the town hall, I believe Raul indicated that the D O T
>> >>>>> form was completely accessible, and you can fill that out, save
>> >>>>> copies and take
>> >>>> them
>> >>>>> with you.
>> >>>>> But I would *definitely* put American on the spot, since they
>> >>>>> rejected
>> >>>> their
>> >>>>> own form, which you went to a lot of trouble to complete.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Susan
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Elizabeth
>> >>>>> Campbell
>> >>>> via
>> >>>>> NAGDU
>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2021 2:03 PM
>> >>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>> >>>>> Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> >>>>> Cc: Elizabeth Campbell <batescampbell at gmail.com>
>> >>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] difficulty with completing form for traveling
>> >>>>> with my
>> >>>> guide
>> >>>>> dog
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Hello everyone,
>> >>>>> I am flying to Colorado a week from Monday on American Airlines,
>> >>>>> and I've tried twice to complete the form that American is now
>> >>>>> requiring in order
>> >>>> to
>> >>>>> travel with my guide dog. The airline rejected the forms each
>> >>>>> time I submitted them although I worked with Aira agents to make
>> >>>>> sure the
>> >>>> paperwork
>> >>>>> was completed properly.
>> >>>>> When I was filling out the documentation, I used the latest
>> >>>>> versions of JAWS, Windows 10 and Adobe DC. I completed most of
>> >>>>> the form without assistance, but needed to get help from Aira on
>> >>>>> filling in the rabies vaccination dates and with adding my
>> >>>>> signature.
>> >>>>> I got emails from American stating I needed to resubmit the form
>> >>>>> with the boxes checked, the vaccination dates and my signature.
>> >>>>> The Aira agents
>> >>>> told
>> >>>>> me that there is a calendar drop down which isn't accessible
>> >>>>> with JAWS. I was able to read the calendar using NVDA, but I
>> >>>>> couldn't fill in the
>> >>>> dates.
>> >>>>> I also needed help from Aira to add my signature.
>> >>>>> During our town hall, I remember someone stating that she filled
>> >>>>> out the form for flying on American.
>> >>>>> I can't figure out what I am doing incorrectly since I've gotten
>> >>>>> confirmation when working with Aira agents that all of the
>> >>>>> necessary information is complete.
>> >>>>> Thanks in advance for help and suggestions.
>> >>>>> I sent an email to the American disability desk, but havent'
>> >>>>> heard back
>> >>>> yet.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Liz
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Elizabeth Campbell
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>> >>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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>> >>>>> info for
>> >>>> NAGDU:
>> >>>>>
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>> >>>> 0sb
>> >>>> cg
>> >>>> lobal
>> >>>> .
>> >>>>> net
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
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>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Elizabeth Campbell
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >
>> > --
>> > Elizabeth Campbell
>> > _______________________________________________
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