[NAGDU] Guide Dog Programs in the States

Heather Bird heather.l.bird at gmail.com
Fri Aug 5 03:57:12 UTC 2022


Hello. Well, let’s see. First of all, the only school in the United States, that I am aware of, that gives full and complete ownership, is The Seeing Eye. However, most schools give at least some degree of ownership. Since policies can be updated, it is always good to ask the school you’re considering, to see a copy of the ownership/custody agreement. Some schools have a better track record than others for following their own ownership policies, but research is important both the kind where you reach out to the school and ask them for information directly, and the sort where you look at posts and blog entries on the web to see what peoples experiences have been.

As for being treated like a first time handler, I would say that a good school will treat you that way a little bit. That is, they will treat you like a first time student out there school, but a good school can do that without being condescending. For instance, when I went to The Seeing Eye in 2011, I had already had one dog from Guiding Eyes For The Blind, and two dogs from Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation, but I still had to stay for the longer program, since I was a first time student at The Seeing Eye. This wasn’t because they thought I didn’t know how to be a good handler, but they did think, and rightly so, that I didn’t have all the information about their training methods and techniques. I think what you’re asking, and I think what would make you the most happy, it’s for a school that doesn’t treat you like an idiot, or a child, a school that is not condescending, or parental. I think in general, most schools these days are much better than they have been in the past, although, your experience at a particular school, will have a lot to do with which group of trainers you work with. You might go to one of the better schools but wind up with a particularly condescending group of trainers, or you might go to a school that doesn’t have the best track record, but wind up with a few amazing trainers. My experiences with individual trainers at Fidelco was very positive, not parental or condescending. However, there was a lack of transparency and accountability on the administrative end of things which is why I switched schools. I did have some problematic experiences with trainers at Guiding Eyes For The Blind, and I have heard some similar reports, but also many wonderful experiences, so it really depends what trainers you get. I will say, that I have had overwhelmingly positive experiences with trainers from The Seeing Eye. Their slogan is independence with dignity since 1929, and I think that they really do take that motto very seriously. Any school you go to, I think you’re going to find that you’re being told a lot of information that you already know, because they have to teach to the lowest common denominator, they have to teach to the new people, and the retrains, they have to teach to the people who are of average intelligence or slightly below, and the people who are certified geniuses, they need to present all of the information, to every person, in every class, to make sure they don’t miss anything, which means at any school, even the best schools, it’s going to feel very repetitious. I just remind myself that they have to teach to everybody, from every situation, in every circumstance, and I use a mental sorting system. With each piece of information they present, my brain sorts it into do I already know this? Yes, that ignore it, is this something new? Yes, then make note of the new information. One thing I like at The Seeing Eye, if they give you the lectures on a USB drive, so you can listen to them ahead of time, and they have extra information that might not be covered, or covered in the same way, during the impersonal lecture. This can help you prepare questions you want to ask, review the material after you’re done with class, and can sometimes make for deeper, more educated discussions, when several students in the class take advantage of the lectures ahead of time. I will say this, any good trainer, no matter what school they are at, will tell you, that even though you’ve had a dog before, you need to fully commit to learning the way this dog, this new dog, has been trained, so that you don’t confuse the dog. Many trainers will also tell you, that retrains can actually be more difficult, because they have to help you unlearn bad habits, or switch over from one method to another, whereas new handlers are more of a blank slate.

So, positive training methods. Where should I begin. I really resent the term positive training methods, because it’s so broad, and it’s not specific at all. To me, something positive, is something that is good, something that works, something that is not harmful, something that is efficient, beneficial, etc. and some thing that is negative is something that doesn’t work, is harmful, is cruel, is not beneficial. And the terms positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement are different from what people usually mean when they say positive training methods. Very briefly, reinforcement makes a behavior continue, punishment makes a behavior stop. Positive means you add something, and negative means you take it away. So, giving a verbal correction and telling your dog “no “is positive punishment it is punishment because you are telling them to stop a behavior, and it is positive because you are introducing something, in this case, a word. Negative punishment could be taking away a toy if a dog becomes too aggressive in their play with another dog. It is punishment because you’re trying to decrease the behavior, and it is negative because you’re taking something out of the equationIn this case, the toy. Giving a dog a treat when they perform a behavior is positive reinforcement, it is reinforcement because it’s intended to make the behavior continue, it’s positive because you’re adding something, a treat. Negative reinforcement would be something like holding an ear pinch until the dog lowers its head and picks up a dropped object, it is reinforcement because it causes the dog to do the behavior, it is negative not because it is cruel, although it is cruel, it is negative though because the pinching of the year ceases when the behavior is being performed, that is, it reinforces behavior by taking away something. So, if we’re talking about positive training methods though, the way most people seem to mean it, is that the dog gets no corrections, that no punishment of any kind is used. I am strongly of the opinion that any dog that is biddable enough, and soft enough in temperament, to comply with only these “positive “training methods, is not going to be sound enough to work in demanding environments, or, to exercise significant intelligent disobedience any school that uses no leash corrections of any sort is not a school that I would ever attend, or recommend to anyone. Correction is sometimes necessary, and if you can use verbal correction only, with a dog, chances are, that dog, is not going to be the right temperament and soundness to be a guide dog, possibly a service dog for physical assistance, but not a guide dog. Let me be very clear also, that I do not know a single school in the United States that uses cruel methods of correction. That is, none of the schools kick, hit, pinch, push, throw, or throw things at, shock, burn, or otherwise hurt the dogs they are training. Some method used in the past, such as using an ear pinch, have been discontinued, to my knowledge, at every single school, for many many years. A physical correction that is unpleasant to a dog, or that gets their attention, is very helpful, and refusing to use any such techniques, severely limits the quality and type of dog that can be trained. At least correction, if performed correctly, at the right strength for the particular dog, and with the particular color the dog needs, be a chain color, toggle color, half check color, or Martingale collar, will function in the same way as tapping someone on the shoulder to get their attention, or shaking someone by the shoulders, but it’s definitely not the equivalent of punching someone, slapping them, or otherwise hurting them. Also, many “punishment “are natural consequences, and are physical. For instance, if your dog scavengers food from the ground, you need to stop, pry their jaws open, shove your hand down their throat, and pull the object out. This can be unpleasant for the dog, maybe even a little bit painful, but we don’t do it for that reason, we do it so they don’t get sick, or injured, but something they have picked up. But it has the added benefit, of being a deterrent. It serves a function of removing the object from their mouth, and also makes them much less likely to pick something up in the future. There are a whole host of ways to get a dogs attention, and convey to them that they have made a mistake. For instance, if you rework some thing they have run you into, but this time you have a hand up and you’re prepared, and you slap the object hard if they run you into it again, or, you get something that makes noise, like holding a pot lid in your hand, so when they clip you on a door frame it makes a very loud sound. Or, when my dog doesn’t stop for something it makes me trip, I might stop my foot, which is very strong body language and gets her attention. All of these things are highly effective, and to some individuals, would be considered as negative training methods.I am very concerned by and disturbed by a trend I am seeing not just in Guide Dogs schools, but in other working dog programs, where if a dog misbehaves, you simply ignore it, or are you turn your back on the dog, or you wait a few moments to see what they will do next. I’m sorry, but if a dog has its head in a garbage can, you were going to need to correct them, and correct them hard. If a dog jumps on someone, they are going to need a strong and angry sounding verbal correction at the very least. And if a dog does something truly dangerous, then they will need to be corrected. Also, sometimes when someone uses the term positive training methods, they are specifically referring to treat training. I am a big fan of correctly used treat and clicker training, and I am strongly opposed to sloppily, or overly applied treat training. That is, I think the tree should never be used unless you are using a bridge, usually a clicker, sometimes a whistle, or a mouth mark, such as clicking the tongue, or saying yes. Treats are a strong motivator, but with something that is that potent, you want to be very clear in your communication with your dog. Also, treats should be used intermittently, that means in a way that is random, and unpredictable. If a dog is rewarded every single time with a treat, and they see you don’t have your treats with you, it is quite likely they won’t perform their job duties, or at least not do so very well. With a guide dog, that is not just annoying, that is dangerous. Trading a dog a new behavior with treats, and then never ever using treats again, is unfair, it’s almost like you’re punishing them for learning the behavior so well that you’re taking the treats away. Using treats on a truly random basis, is also the most reinforcing. Many studies, with many types of animals, including human beings, have proven that intermittent reinforcement is far more reinforcing, even more reinforcing than constant reinforcement. I find that the way in which Fidelco, and The Seeing Eye, utilize treats, is very wise. I find the way that some other schools have been using treats, has been less refined, and potentially quite problematic. I would read some training blogs, and chat with some graduates of various programs, and I would give this general rule of thumb, if you find that the handler is expected to give a treat, at every curb, then this is a sloppy and ineffective use of treats. Certainly, if you have a dog that is over running curbs, or creeping up on curbs and stopping to early, then you can use treats to refine their curb behavior, but this is not something you should need to do at every curb, for the working life of the dog. Extremes are not healthy, any school that refuses to use treats ever, under any circumstance, is behaving in a way that is, limited and ignorant. Likewise, a school that uses treats constantly, is behaving in an equally ignorant fashion. Just for the record, I do not know of any schools in the United States at this time that absolutely refuse to use treats, although there are a disturbing number of schools following the trend of overusing treats in recent years.

I don’t want this to sound like an advertisement for The Seeing Eye, but I want to say one more thing in favor of that program. The Seeing Eye gives every student a tool kit and teaches them how to use it. That is, The Seeing Eye teaches about the letter of corrections, which encompasses everything from very gentle spoken corrections to strongly worded verbal corrections, two natural consequences, two gentle physical corrections, two very strong high collar corrections. They help you figure out what your dogs temperament calls for, and which type of correction to use in which situation. They use treats, but they don’t overuse them, they use clickers, and they pair treats and clickers with a target, for specific locating behaviors, which is extremely refined, specific, and effective. They recognize, I think better than many other programs, how diverse people are and how diverse peoples needs are. They have some dogs that are extremely soft, they can work with someone who is 80 years old, and has limited use of their hands, and limited strength. They have some very hard dogs who are brilliant, and difficult, and wonderful, for people who live in big cities, and want their dog to do fantastic work, undemanding roots, and learn new behaviors. They have golden retrievers, and more importantly, they have a large number of very temperamentally sound golden retrievers, we’re not fearful, or goofy. They have labradors, and more specifically they have labradors who are work driven, Bright, and intuitive. They have German shepherds, and more importantly, they have German shepherds were not neurotic, overprotective, or with too strong of a prey drive or a hurting drive. They are extremely picky about the matching process. They will not bring you into class on a first come first served basis, they will bring you into class when they have a dog that is a good match for you, and your needs. When I was at Fidelco, I noticed a trend where they have some truly brilliant amazing German shepherds, but they also had a high incidence of dogs who developed issues because they were too intense, to prey driven, had too strong of a hurting drive, we’re too smart for their own good and would  get bored, or neurotic, etc. many schools have dropped their German Shepherd, and, or, their golden retriever breeding programs. Almost every school has labradors, however, I have found that many labradors have a tendency to play dumb even if they are quite intelligent, to be more motivated by pleasing you, then by learning, or performing their work. Labradors like that are lovely, sweet, wonderful pets, and can be good Guide Dogs, depending on what you need. However, The Seeing Eye has a strong German Shepherd breeding program, a strong golden retriever breeding program, and a diverse range of labradors, including some who act more like German shepherds, and others who act more like golden retrievers. Just to be clear, I’m not saying that The Seeing Eye can do everything. With their diverse tool kit of training methods, and range of available dogs, I think they do a better job than other schools, in serving the needs of diverse students, but only up to a point. No school can be everything, to everyone, and while I think The Seeing Eye does overall, a better job than many other programs, in meeting the needs of students that fall within let’s say 40% on either side of the center of the bell curve, they do not have the specialized programs or services to meet the needs of the 10% on either end of the bell curve. For instance, while they do offer home training, in some situation, to some graduates, Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation, and Freedom Guide Dogs, both offer well honed and Exclusively home training options that are, by design, going to do a better job than those of the Seeing Eye. Other programs also have specialized knowledge in specific skill areas, such as guiding eyes having a program for athletes to receive Guide Dogs who can run with them under certain circumstances, or other schools which will train deaf blind handlers, or work with handlers who are also wheelchair users. I think, if pressed, I could make a case, for each school in the United States, for at least some of the people some of the time. Overall, Seeing Eye is the school I tend to recommend to most people most of the time. However, I absolutely acknowledge that it is not the right school for everyone. Additionally, I don’t care what school we’re talking about here, The Seeing Eye, Guide Dogs For The Blind, pilot Guide Dogs, it doesn’t matter, you always have to remember this, schools change overtime, they can get better, they can get worse, and abysmal school can improve to become an average, or even a good school, and a great school can go downhill and deteriorate additionally, there are so many factors that go into a successful team, the quality of the puppy raisers, the breeding stock, the trainers, the handler them self, and the quality of the dog itself, that even the worst school can turn out an amazing team, and the best school can turn out a terrible team. Also, using a term like “worst school “needs to be understood in the context that even my least preferred guide dog training program in the United States, is still a good option for some people some of the time, and is far and away a better program than many of the programs in existence at the beginning of the guide dog movement in the United States. Any school that is IGDF certified is going to be adhering to a set of standards ensuring a minimum quality, and that minimum quality is a much higher quality than many schools at the beginning of the rise of guide dog schools. I would be cautious of any guide dog training program that is not certified by ADI and or I GDF.

I hope some of this is helpful. The last thing I want to say, is that, you shouldn’t take my word for it, or anyone else who might answer your question here on this list, you should contact schools, and ask the specific questions you have, after reading the information on their website, and getting feedback from myself and others on this email list.

Life is short, dictation is useful, any errors brought to you courtesy of dictation.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 4, 2022, at 10:35 PM, Leye-Shprintse Oeberg via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> BS’D
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I’ve been an active and passive member of this list for years now. In December, my beloved guide dog Hera crossed the rainbow bridge at the age of 12, it went very quickly 6 months after her retirement. Thanks G-d, I was there for her till the end with the support of my mother and Hera’s favorite person after me. The pain is still real, I miss her everyday and I cannot talk about her without crying. However, I know that I want to have another guide dog in the future, G-d willing. I lived in Europe before but since 3 months ago, I have been in the United States and I’ll stay here because I’ve met an American man who I’ll marry in less than 6 weeks, G-d willing.
> 
> I wonder which guide dog programs in the United States use positive training metods and give ownership upon graduation since those two questions ahe most important for me when applying to programs? How long is the waitingtime now after the pandemic? Will the American guide dog programs take into consideration that I’m  a guide dog user even if Hera and I were trained through the Swedish system, I do not want to be treated as a first time guide dog user since Hera and I got 9.5 years as a guide dog team? Can I apply now, I don not have my Green Card yet nor a work permit but I am civilly married already?
> 
> Thank you for your support!
> 
> לשלום,
> Leye-Shprintse Oeberg
> Brooklyn (N.Y.), United States
> +1 (929) 977-8890
> leyeshprintse at gmail.com
> www.leyeshprintse.com
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/heather.l.bird%40gmail.com



More information about the NAGDU mailing list