[NAGDU] Dogs and Canes in Tandem?

Mon May 2 14:37:51 UTC 2022

Hi, I never used to carry a cane while working my dog until one day when she stopped for no reason twice. It was at the same point both times but both times there were other people with me and they couldn't see the problem. It was just at the side of the road where there was a crossing. One time another dog user had already walked across in front of me so there should have been no issues. I told my dog to go forward but she wouldn't move, I had a sighted partner of the other dog owner, walking along with us and she couldn't see any reason for the dog to have stopped. The other time I also had someone with sight with us and again they couldn't see why the dog had stopped.

It was after this I got my first telescope cane to carry in my bag. The school at the time weren't happy about giving out that sort of cane for regular use but once I explained it was only to be used if there was a problem with my dog they were fine with it.

I have never used a cane while working my dog and thankfully I never had a problem like I had above again.

Bye for now.
>From Shaz.
Canberra, Australia.

I don’t suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Danielle Sykora via NAGDU
Sent: Friday, 29 April 2022 2:17 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Danielle Sykora <dsykora29 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Dogs and Canes in Tandem?

It is common these days for handlers to carry a folding cane, either all of the time or just in situations they think it might be helpful.
I personally keep a folding cane in the backpack I carry with me around my university campus most of the time anyway. However, I typically don't carry a cane at home in my quiet neighborhood or really any time I'm not carrying a backpack for another reason.

Personally, there are really only a few situations where I use a cane.
THe main one is when locating a target I haven't taught the dog to find. Usually, this is something completely new I never taught the dog, like finding the pole for a crosswalk button when I have not yet taught the dog to target (or generalize targeting) poles. In this situation, I heel the dog and find the target using my cane once I know we are very close. I've also used my cane to find something that requires using physical landmarks I can not hear or feel. For example, I know I need to find the fourth door on the right in a building with no accessible signs to identify room numbers. I can't ask the dog to find the fourth door or tell the dog to find the door when I think we are close, and verify it has the correct room number. So I use my cane to find it the first time, and then teach my dog to target that specific door. In these situations, the dog is heeling while I use my cane.

The second  situation I sometimes use a cane for is sidewalkless travel, when walking on the right side. It is helpful to check that we are all the way to the right without needing to stop to check. In this situation, the dog is guiding and I'm just using the cane on the right side.

The third way I use a cane while working a dog is in significant snow coverage. Sometimes, it can be really helpful to use a cane to determine if a snow pile is one I can climb over or it is better to take a long way around. Snow often turns routes with sidewalks into country walks when people don't shovel, so that is an additional consideration.

Of course, I also use my cane when I heel the dog for any other reason.

Another use for the cane is checking why the dog has stopped, if you can't figure it out using other methods. TO be honest, I haven't found this necessary much but I know others find this to be very valuable.

That being said, I'm not sure I would recommend using a cane for an entire route while working a dog on a regular basis. If the dog isn't consistently stopping at stairs or curbs on a regular basis, then that dog is not safe as a guide without retraining. If the dog is reliably performing tasks, then I think it is important to trust that the dog will keep you safe. I don't mean to sound critical and everyone is different; however, I would be concerned that using a cane extensively while also asking the dog to guide would lead to one of two issues.
First, second guessing the dog the same way people sometimes do when relying on vision. Second, I would be concerned about degrading the dogs performance because you are relying on the cane and not the dog stopping for changes in elevation. If the dog learns you are going to stop whether she initiates it or not in unfamiliar areas because your cane detected the change in elevation, she might be less reliable in familiar environments without the cane. If you start subconsciously using your cane to find the way around obstacles, she might start showing less initiative to move around obstacles because you are doing her job for her. This could probably all be mitigated by truly using the cane only to back up what the dog is suggesting and reworking any mistakes she makes as usual. However, I'm not sure it is worth the temptation to trust the cane over the dog if she is not giving you any reason not to trust her.

Hopefully that made some sense and good luck with whatever you decide.

Danielle

On 4/28/22, Kevan Worley via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Stacey, another great point. I didn’t even think of that one when I 
> answered the question. By the way, I wants took my dog to the vet. 
> They had to keep her for a few hours. I had not brought a cane. So I 
> was wandering around caneless! It was a very bazaar.
>
> At Your Service,
> Kevan Worley
>
>> On Apr 28, 2022, at 6:39 AM, Stacie Gallegos via NAGDU 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello there. This is a great question. I have had two guide dogs. 
>> And am hoping to get my third and the near future. Using your cane 
>> along with your dog is absolutely no problem and I personally think 
>> it is a great idea to have a cane with you. With my first dog, I was 
>> at a conference, and he got sick. Had I not had my cane, I would not 
>> have had a way to travel independently. I look at it as having a 
>> toolbox and having all kinds of tools at your disposal for whatever situation may come about.
>>
>> ---
>> Stacie Gallegos / President
>> National Federation of the Blind Houston Chapter
>> (346) 704-0190 | SGallegos at nfbtx.org
>>
>>
>>
>>> On April 28, 2022 6:57:46 AM Diane Graves via NAGDU 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greetings Once Again,
>>>
>>>
>>> Back again with my 2nd question. I'm wondering if any of you use 
>>> your dog and your cane at the same time when exploring unfamiliar environments?
>>>
>>>
>>> As I've posted here before, I didn't decide to try using a dog until 
>>> later in life. As a result, the learning curve relative to the 
>>> transition from cane to dog was quite steep. My initial instructor 
>>> was very condescending; not encouraging at all, so I didn't get the 
>>> same quality of training as others likely did. Anyway, shortly after 
>>> Izzo and I got together I took a pretty nasty fall. This was likely 
>>> my fault, but nonetheless, it was frightening. That said, I  remain 
>>> very apprehensive when in unfamiliar environments wherein I don't 
>>> know exactly where the curbs and steps are.
>>>
>>>
>>> Have any of you had similar experiences? Do you see any problems 
>>> with walking with the dog while checking out the new or unfamiliar 
>>> environment with the cane at the same time?
>>>
>>>
>>> Any feedback appreciated.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Diane Graves
>>>
>>>
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