[NAGDU] Dogs and Canes in Tandem?

Mon May 2 14:55:57 UTC 2022

Hello,
First, I would like to think I am a confident traveler. However, when
I got my third dog, we also moved in the middle of COVID to a place I
had never explored before. Lets just say I totally started using my
cane sometimes and my girl and it is freeing. It helps me learn the
driveways and little things that with a dog you might miss sometimes.
Also it helps me figure out, why the heck does she sniff at this
corner. Oh there is a trash can there so now in future, we can
navigate that area with more ease. I asked TSE when they came to help
us a few weeks back about it and my instructor said of course this is
completely fine and encouraged. Whatever tools you can use to make you
a more happy and at ease traveler go for it.
Jessica

On 5/2/22, Sharon S via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi, I never used to carry a cane while working my dog until one day when she
> stopped for no reason twice. It was at the same point both times but both
> times there were other people with me and they couldn't see the problem. It
> was just at the side of the road where there was a crossing. One time
> another dog user had already walked across in front of me so there should
> have been no issues. I told my dog to go forward but she wouldn't move, I
> had a sighted partner of the other dog owner, walking along with us and she
> couldn't see any reason for the dog to have stopped. The other time I also
> had someone with sight with us and again they couldn't see why the dog had
> stopped.
>
> It was after this I got my first telescope cane to carry in my bag. The
> school at the time weren't happy about giving out that sort of cane for
> regular use but once I explained it was only to be used if there was a
> problem with my dog they were fine with it.
>
> I have never used a cane while working my dog and thankfully I never had a
> problem like I had above again.
>
> Bye for now.
> From Shaz.
> Canberra, Australia.
>
> I don’t suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Danielle Sykora via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Friday, 29 April 2022 2:17 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Danielle Sykora <dsykora29 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Dogs and Canes in Tandem?
>
> It is common these days for handlers to carry a folding cane, either all of
> the time or just in situations they think it might be helpful.
> I personally keep a folding cane in the backpack I carry with me around my
> university campus most of the time anyway. However, I typically don't carry
> a cane at home in my quiet neighborhood or really any time I'm not carrying
> a backpack for another reason.
>
> Personally, there are really only a few situations where I use a cane.
> THe main one is when locating a target I haven't taught the dog to find.
> Usually, this is something completely new I never taught the dog, like
> finding the pole for a crosswalk button when I have not yet taught the dog
> to target (or generalize targeting) poles. In this situation, I heel the dog
> and find the target using my cane once I know we are very close. I've also
> used my cane to find something that requires using physical landmarks I can
> not hear or feel. For example, I know I need to find the fourth door on the
> right in a building with no accessible signs to identify room numbers. I
> can't ask the dog to find the fourth door or tell the dog to find the door
> when I think we are close, and verify it has the correct room number. So I
> use my cane to find it the first time, and then teach my dog to target that
> specific door. In these situations, the dog is heeling while I use my cane.
>
> The second  situation I sometimes use a cane for is sidewalkless travel,
> when walking on the right side. It is helpful to check that we are all the
> way to the right without needing to stop to check. In this situation, the
> dog is guiding and I'm just using the cane on the right side.
>
> The third way I use a cane while working a dog is in significant snow
> coverage. Sometimes, it can be really helpful to use a cane to determine if
> a snow pile is one I can climb over or it is better to take a long way
> around. Snow often turns routes with sidewalks into country walks when
> people don't shovel, so that is an additional consideration.
>
> Of course, I also use my cane when I heel the dog for any other reason.
>
> Another use for the cane is checking why the dog has stopped, if you can't
> figure it out using other methods. TO be honest, I haven't found this
> necessary much but I know others find this to be very valuable.
>
> That being said, I'm not sure I would recommend using a cane for an entire
> route while working a dog on a regular basis. If the dog isn't consistently
> stopping at stairs or curbs on a regular basis, then that dog is not safe as
> a guide without retraining. If the dog is reliably performing tasks, then I
> think it is important to trust that the dog will keep you safe. I don't mean
> to sound critical and everyone is different; however, I would be concerned
> that using a cane extensively while also asking the dog to guide would lead
> to one of two issues.
> First, second guessing the dog the same way people sometimes do when relying
> on vision. Second, I would be concerned about degrading the dogs performance
> because you are relying on the cane and not the dog stopping for changes in
> elevation. If the dog learns you are going to stop whether she initiates it
> or not in unfamiliar areas because your cane detected the change in
> elevation, she might be less reliable in familiar environments without the
> cane. If you start subconsciously using your cane to find the way around
> obstacles, she might start showing less initiative to move around obstacles
> because you are doing her job for her. This could probably all be mitigated
> by truly using the cane only to back up what the dog is suggesting and
> reworking any mistakes she makes as usual. However, I'm not sure it is worth
> the temptation to trust the cane over the dog if she is not giving you any
> reason not to trust her.
>
> Hopefully that made some sense and good luck with whatever you decide.
>
> Danielle
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 4/28/22, Kevan Worley via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Stacey, another great point. I didn’t even think of that one when I
>> answered the question. By the way, I wants took my dog to the vet.
>> They had to keep her for a few hours. I had not brought a cane. So I
>> was wandering around caneless! It was a very bazaar.
>>
>> At Your Service,
>> Kevan Worley
>>
>>> On Apr 28, 2022, at 6:39 AM, Stacie Gallegos via NAGDU
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello there. This is a great question. I have had two guide dogs.
>>> And am hoping to get my third and the near future. Using your cane
>>> along with your dog is absolutely no problem and I personally think
>>> it is a great idea to have a cane with you. With my first dog, I was
>>> at a conference, and he got sick. Had I not had my cane, I would not
>>> have had a way to travel independently. I look at it as having a
>>> toolbox and having all kinds of tools at your disposal for whatever
>>> situation may come about.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Stacie Gallegos / President
>>> National Federation of the Blind Houston Chapter
>>> (346) 704-0190 | SGallegos at nfbtx.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On April 28, 2022 6:57:46 AM Diane Graves via NAGDU
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greetings Once Again,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Back again with my 2nd question. I'm wondering if any of you use
>>>> your dog and your cane at the same time when exploring unfamiliar
>>>> environments?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I've posted here before, I didn't decide to try using a dog until
>>>> later in life. As a result, the learning curve relative to the
>>>> transition from cane to dog was quite steep. My initial instructor
>>>> was very condescending; not encouraging at all, so I didn't get the
>>>> same quality of training as others likely did. Anyway, shortly after
>>>> Izzo and I got together I took a pretty nasty fall. This was likely
>>>> my fault, but nonetheless, it was frightening. That said, I  remain
>>>> very apprehensive when in unfamiliar environments wherein I don't
>>>> know exactly where the curbs and steps are.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Have any of you had similar experiences? Do you see any problems
>>>> with walking with the dog while checking out the new or unfamiliar
>>>> environment with the cane at the same time?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any feedback appreciated.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Diane Graves
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sgallegos%40nfbtx
>>>> .org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/kevan%40nfbco.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.c
>> om
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/koala%40areujoking.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/searsdiaz%40gmail.com
>