[NFB-Braille-Discussion] reading speed: was Slate and Stylus

Tue Jun 15 15:49:07 UTC 2021

I have to wonder how those estimated speeds were arrived at, and I don't
think they're limiters. I don't know where a large enough sample size was
ever assembled to arrive at really definitive numbers of average speeds.
 If you want to increase your speed a bit, even for personal accomplishment,
I, nonprofessionally, suggest that you take a book that isn't too demanding,
maybe even one you're somewhat familiar with, and force yourself to read
faster than you're  comfortable.  Spend some consistent time doing this and
see what happens.  I've done the same thing with audio, forcing the screen
reader speed a bit faster than I like to increase my speed.  It can't hurt! 

Thought-provoking reading: http://bahaiteachings.org

-----Original Message-----
From: NFB-Braille-Discussion <nfb-braille-discussion-bounces at nfbnet.org> On
Behalf Of Mike Jolls via NFB-Braille-Discussion
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2021 9:11 AM
To: NFB Braille Discussion List <nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Mike Jolls <mrspock56 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NFB-Braille-Discussion] Slate and Stylus

Debra

So to make sure I'm understanding, you're saying that to be "on-parr" with
sighted readers, a person needs to learn Braille as early as possible.  I
guess you're also saying that older adults (such as myself) on average who
learn Braille don't have much of a chance to get past the 150 wpm plateau ..
if they get that far at all.

This just makes me wonder if I could have coped better had I been allowed to
learn Braille as a youngster.  But my mother didn't want a blind child ..
even though with my severe nearsightedness that's what I was.  I was taught
to read print exclusively.  That was necessary, but it was also a disaster
in several ways.  Of course that's all way in the past and I can't change
any of that.

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows
10

From: Debra Baxley via
NFB-Braille-Discussion<mailto:nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2021 6:41 AM
To: Mike Jolls via
NFB-Braille-Discussion<mailto:nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Debra Baxley<mailto:debrabaxley330 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NFB-Braille-Discussion] Slate and Stylus

As children, they can read an average of two hundred to four hundred words
per minute; as adults, they read an average of one hundred fifty words per
minute.

Debra 6/15/2021 6:14 AM, Mike Jolls via NFB-Braille-Discussion wrote:

> Allison
>
> Your comment, when you said you read about 80wpm, immediately brought to
my mind something that was always my Achilles heel . my print reading speed.
I am just curious . what is the average Braille reading speed?  I've read,
and I've heard, that there are those that can read Braille at 200, 300, even
400 words per minute.  But I'm wondering what is the average Braille reading
speed?  And if those speeds are attainable (assuming comprehension goes with
them) how long does it take to get to that level?  And is that attainable
only if you started reading Braille when you were 5,6,8 years old?  If so,
I'm stuck with my speed (about 100-120 wpm .. same as my print speed)  since
I started Braille at age 50!!
>
> I'd like to think Braille offers a competitive edge against normally
sighted readers who read 200-250 wpm?  I can't say it does based on my
experience.  I'm retired now, so I don't have to worry so much about speed
and keeping up with everyone else reading print.  Still it would be nice to
get through a book in a reasonable amount of time.  Any idea on how fast
most Braille readers read?
>
> Sent from 
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> 10
>
> From: Allison Hilliker via 
> NFB-Braille-Discussion<mailto:nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 3:30 PM
> To: NFB Braille Discussion 
> List<mailto:nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Allison Hilliker<mailto:AllisonH at Benetech.org>
> Subject: Re: [NFB-Braille-Discussion] Slate and Stylus
>
> Thanks  Ellen! I'll try that. I typically don't think of braille
characters according to their dot numbers myself. I just never have. And I'm
a fluent braille reader. Not excellent, but passable at some 80wpm.  I just
think of braille letters as their shapes, and really have to think of it
before I can name their dot numbers. Still, if that'll help my kids, I'll do
it. I think that, since they're still learning to count in general though,
naming clusters of dot numbers to define letters still confuses them quite a
lot. For example, they know that the letter c says the kuh sound. They know
that there are two dots in a braille c. They know the  to count two dots,
they say one, two. So when I tell them that a braille c is dots 1 4, it
confuses them. Remember, they are new to literacy and numeracy in general.
They haven't quite consolidated how symbols  can mean sounds and pictures
and textures and numbers all at once. They are 3 and 5.
> We do have a braille caravan though, so I'll bring it out again and see
how they do.
> Thanks,
> Allison
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFB-Braille-Discussion 
> <nfb-braille-discussion-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ellen 
> Ringlein via NFB-Braille-Discussion
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2021 3:26 PM
> To: 'NFB Braille Discussion List' <nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Ellen Ringlein <germlish77 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NFB-Braille-Discussion] Slate and Stylus
>
> Hi Allison,
>
> Perhaps if you think of dots 1, 2, 3 as the starting side of the Braille
cell, it may help. When you read  you start from the left and when you write
with the slate you start on the write. If you drill your kids on the dot
numbers that go with the letters, it will be easier to think of slating
letters according to the dot numbers, not the shapes. That way they don't
have to do the mental gymnastic of reversing the shapes in their head. After
a while you no longer need to think of the dot numbers, writing becomes
automatic just like with a Braille writer.
>
> A peg slate from APH or the Braille Caravan available from the NFB
Independence Market may help explain  these concepts. The pegs in the
Braille cells move up and down and don't come out. With these tools it is
easier to understand how dots 1, 2, 3 always refer to the same pegs.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Ellen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFB-Braille-Discussion 
> [mailto:nfb-braille-discussion-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> Allison Hilliker via NFB-Braille-Discussion
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2021 1:30 PM
> To: NFB Braille Discussion List <nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Allison Hilliker <AllisonH at Benetech.org>
> Subject: Re: [NFB-Braille-Discussion] Slate and Stylus
>
> Ramona, please come to Phoenix and teach my kids. They learn best from
anyone who's not mom. And you sound very passionate about the subject.  All
the competent braille readers I know locally are already employed. So I'm
left to either teach them myself, or let the public school TVIs teach them,
and we already know how well braille instruction in public school goes. I
didn't really understand your explanation of how to explain the slate cell
setup differently, but I believe you. I'm sure you're right about it. I'm
just over here doing the best I can with little support.  Honestly, truly
braille positive folks are rare, and spread thinly throughout this country.
I'm finding that I can't even pay somebody to teach my girls reading and
writing in braille, and that's sad. Cuz I know full well how crucial quality
literacy instruction is for young blind kids. So I'm attempting to do it
myself, but nothing mom knows or does is interesting to my girls. Plus, I
don't have all the answers. Far from it. I would give my left arm to have a
braille positive NFB sort nearby to teach my girls. I even have funding to
hire somebody, just no interest. I've networked via my state affiliate, and
there's just nothing. So I'm doing what I can on my own.
>
> Best,
> Allison
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFB-Braille-Discussion 
> <nfb-braille-discussion-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ramona via 
> NFB-Braille-Discussion
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2021 6:56 AM
> To: Mike Jolls via NFB-Braille-Discussion 
> <nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Ramona <walhoframona at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NFB-Braille-Discussion] Slate and Stylus
>
> That's why teacher training should stress first and second sides of the
cell. They get fixated on left and right and reversal which gets passed on
to the students. Some students become fast on the slate, and the problem
gets eliminated. Some do not, just as many teachers do not. It is a project
that needs attention. Maybe this is the best we can do, I would love to get
involved in some college training for teachers of blind kids and adults. It
just makes writing with the slate and stylus seem difficult when it is not.
Yes you need a certain set of muscles, but you need that for writing with a
pen or pencil. It comes with practice. It also leads to people thinking the
computer will take care of this "difficulty." Recordings were going to
replace Braille; now it's computers. If people like Curtis Chong and Steve
Jacobsen use the slate, then let's not deprive our kids of it.
>
> RamonaOn Jun 9, 2021 6:11 PM, Mike Jolls via NFB-Braille-Discussion
<nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Ramona
>>
>> Oh I knew 1-2-3 was the first set of dots on the first side, and I knew
4-5-6 was on the other side.  It's just, as I tried to say, I always thought
of 1-2-3 ONLY ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE CELL when you're looking at the slate.
I never thought of assigning 1-2-3 to the right hand side of the cell.
That's because my teacher told me at the start . 1-2-3 is on the left.  And
4-5-6 is on the right.  Since she never said anything else, I never thought
any differently.  So when I had to write an F I had to mentally translate
... "1-2-4 is dots 4-5-1 when writing".  And when your mind is doing that,
you have to do that for EVERY SYMBOL YOU WRITE.  I never thought of changing
the dot number assignments for writing and just think 1-2-4.  That might
have made it easier, and it probably would have made me a faster writer
since having to mentally translate adds a half second (or something like
that) to almost every character you write.  Thinking about it "being in
reverse" was just natural for me.  Had I been told to change dot number
assignments, it might have made it easier because as Allison said, I had to
think . "what's the reverse pattern" . for almost every symbol written.
>>
>>
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>> From: Ramona via
>> NFB-Braille-Discussion<mailto:nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 9, 2021 7:00 PM
>> To: Mike Jolls via
>> NFB-Braille-Discussion<mailto:nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Ramona<mailto:walhoframona at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NFB-Braille-Discussion] Slate and Stylus
>>
>> 1-2-3 is always the first side of the cell. it is really that simple. I'm
sorry teachers do not receive that information before they ever meet a
student.
>>
>> RamonaOn Jun 9, 2021 4:00 PM, Mike Jolls via NFB-Braille-Discussion
<nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> I'd like to weigh in here on "writing backwards".  I'm a partially
sighted person who found Braille in my early 50's.  I'm 65 and I still use
it.  I go back and forth with print and Braille.  It's great having both
skills and I can use Braille when I know print just isn't going to work.  I
wish I had known Braille LOT EARLIER . but it just didn't happen.
Personally, I think every partially sighted student should learn Braille.
Then they can use whichever method will work for them in a given situation.
Of course that's not what this topic is about and I won't go further.
That's another topic if we want to pursue it.
>>>
>>> Now, onto "writing backwards" on the slate and stylus.
>>>
>>> When I learned Braille and learned to write with a slate and stylus, I
ALWAYS thought that writing was OPPOSITE or BACKWARDS to how you read it.
You write it right to left rather than when you're reading it.  You had to
use the "opposite dot pattern" when writing a character in the cell.  That's
backwards in my thinking.  A "B" for example is written in dots 4,5 on the
right side of the cell rather than 1,2 on the left side of the cell (that
assumes you are still thinking about the cell dots in the configuration used
for reading).  And I always did this.  My teacher NEVER told me to think of
dots 1 and 2 on the right side of the cell when writing.  I knew a B was
dots 1,2.  I knew dots 1,2 were on the left (for reading).  Since I had to
write them on the right hand side of the cell, I thought it was BACKWARDS.
You had to use 4-5 to write a B which should up as dots 1-2 when you read
it.  I remember my teacher liked to say "mirror image".  Had she told me
that I should consider 1,2 on the right hand side of the cell for writing
and 4-5-6 was on the left, maybe I wouldn't have thought it was backwards.
I would have thought .. OK . 1-2-3 are on the left for reading, but they're
on the right side for writing.  Since she didn't make that distinction, I
saw that the dots had to be in the opposite position to that for reading so
that when you flipped the page over, they'd be correct for reading.  So I
just thought .. punch the opposite dots in the cell when writing a
character.  My realization may have reinforced the idea of opposite.  That's
just how I perceived the process.  I remember once I mentioned to her that I
was writing the characters BACKWARDS.  I was immediately told I was wrong
and "we don't use the word backwards, it's too confusing".  Personally I
didn't see it as confusing.  I just saw that this was what you had to do.
And I do remember that I made my fair share of errors when writing.  Perhaps
that would have been less had I just considered things differently for
writing.
>>>
>>> Anyway that's how I learned.  It just seemed natural to think about
writing "the opposite pattern" to get it come out right for reading.
>>>
>>> Please feel free to comment.
>>>
>>> Mike Jolls
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>> From: Susan Jolly via
>>> NFB-Braille-Discussion<mailto:nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 9, 2021 4:08 PM
>>> To: 'NFB Braille Discussion
>>> List'<mailto:nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Susan Jolly<mailto:easjolly at ix.netcom.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [NFB-Braille-Discussion] Slate and Stylus
>>>
>>> I wonder if opposite would be a better word? You read from 
>>> left-to-right and write from right-to-left.  They are both the opposite
of the other one.
>>>
>>> My father, who was born over a hundred years ago, could write print 
>>> backwards almost as easily as forwards.  I got the impression that 
>>> was something a lot of sighted people used to do. It kept other 
>>> people from looking over their shoulder and reading what they were 
>>> writing with a quick glance.  This could be helpful if they were 
>>> writing something private like a note to pass to a friend in school.
>>> Of course the main point of this story is that all it requires is
motivation and practice.
>>>
>>> HTH, Susan J
>>>
>>>
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