[NFB-Braille-Discussion] reading speed: was Slate and Stylus

Tue Jun 15 16:20:02 UTC 2021

No.  I found those numbers on the internet.  You can read as fast as you 
possibly can.

Who knowss?  It could be faster than four hundred words per minute.

Debbra n 6/15/2021 10:49 AM, Dean Martineau via NFB-Braille-Discussion 
wrote:
> I have to wonder how those estimated speeds were arrived at, and I don't
> think they're limiters. I don't know where a large enough sample size was
> ever assembled to arrive at really definitive numbers of average speeds.
>   If you want to increase your speed a bit, even for personal accomplishment,
> I, nonprofessionally, suggest that you take a book that isn't too demanding,
> maybe even one you're somewhat familiar with, and force yourself to read
> faster than you're  comfortable.  Spend some consistent time doing this and
> see what happens.  I've done the same thing with audio, forcing the screen
> reader speed a bit faster than I like to increase my speed.  It can't hurt!
>
> Thought-provoking reading: http://bahaiteachings.org
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFB-Braille-Discussion <nfb-braille-discussion-bounces at nfbnet.org> On
> Behalf Of Mike Jolls via NFB-Braille-Discussion
> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2021 9:11 AM
> To: NFB Braille Discussion List <nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Mike Jolls <mrspock56 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NFB-Braille-Discussion] Slate and Stylus
>
> Debra
>
> So to make sure I'm understanding, you're saying that to be "on-parr" with
> sighted readers, a person needs to learn Braille as early as possible.  I
> guess you're also saying that older adults (such as myself) on average who
> learn Braille don't have much of a chance to get past the 150 wpm plateau ..
> if they get that far at all.
>
> This just makes me wonder if I could have coped better had I been allowed to
> learn Braille as a youngster.  But my mother didn't want a blind child ..
> even though with my severe nearsightedness that's what I was.  I was taught
> to read print exclusively.  That was necessary, but it was also a disaster
> in several ways.  Of course that's all way in the past and I can't change
> any of that.
>
> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows
> 10
>
> From: Debra Baxley via
> NFB-Braille-Discussion<mailto:nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2021 6:41 AM
> To: Mike Jolls via
> NFB-Braille-Discussion<mailto:nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Debra Baxley<mailto:debrabaxley330 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NFB-Braille-Discussion] Slate and Stylus
>
> As children, they can read an average of two hundred to four hundred words
> per minute; as adults, they read an average of one hundred fifty words per
> minute.
>
>
> Debra 6/15/2021 6:14 AM, Mike Jolls via NFB-Braille-Discussion wrote:
>
>> Allison
>>
>> Your comment, when you said you read about 80wpm, immediately brought to
> my mind something that was always my Achilles heel . my print reading speed.
> I am just curious . what is the average Braille reading speed?  I've read,
> and I've heard, that there are those that can read Braille at 200, 300, even
> 400 words per minute.  But I'm wondering what is the average Braille reading
> speed?  And if those speeds are attainable (assuming comprehension goes with
> them) how long does it take to get to that level?  And is that attainable
> only if you started reading Braille when you were 5,6,8 years old?  If so,
> I'm stuck with my speed (about 100-120 wpm .. same as my print speed)  since
> I started Braille at age 50!!
>> I'd like to think Braille offers a competitive edge against normally
> sighted readers who read 200-250 wpm?  I can't say it does based on my
> experience.  I'm retired now, so I don't have to worry so much about speed
> and keeping up with everyone else reading print.  Still it would be nice to
> get through a book in a reasonable amount of time.  Any idea on how fast
> most Braille readers read?
>> Sent from
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>> 10
>>
>> From: Allison Hilliker via
>> NFB-Braille-Discussion<mailto:nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 3:30 PM
>> To: NFB Braille Discussion
>> List<mailto:nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Allison Hilliker<mailto:AllisonH at Benetech.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NFB-Braille-Discussion] Slate and Stylus
>>
>> Thanks  Ellen! I'll try that. I typically don't think of braille
> characters according to their dot numbers myself. I just never have. And I'm
> a fluent braille reader. Not excellent, but passable at some 80wpm.  I just
> think of braille letters as their shapes, and really have to think of it
> before I can name their dot numbers. Still, if that'll help my kids, I'll do
> it. I think that, since they're still learning to count in general though,
> naming clusters of dot numbers to define letters still confuses them quite a
> lot. For example, they know that the letter c says the kuh sound. They know
> that there are two dots in a braille c. They know the  to count two dots,
> they say one, two. So when I tell them that a braille c is dots 1 4, it
> confuses them. Remember, they are new to literacy and numeracy in general.
> They haven't quite consolidated how symbols  can mean sounds and pictures
> and textures and numbers all at once. They are 3 and 5.
>> We do have a braille caravan though, so I'll bring it out again and see
> how they do.
>> Thanks,
>> Allison
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFB-Braille-Discussion
>> <nfb-braille-discussion-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ellen
>> Ringlein via NFB-Braille-Discussion
>> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2021 3:26 PM
>> To: 'NFB Braille Discussion List' <nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Ellen Ringlein <germlish77 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NFB-Braille-Discussion] Slate and Stylus
>>
>> Hi Allison,
>>
>> Perhaps if you think of dots 1, 2, 3 as the starting side of the Braille
> cell, it may help. When you read  you start from the left and when you write
> with the slate you start on the write. If you drill your kids on the dot
> numbers that go with the letters, it will be easier to think of slating
> letters according to the dot numbers, not the shapes. That way they don't
> have to do the mental gymnastic of reversing the shapes in their head. After
> a while you no longer need to think of the dot numbers, writing becomes
> automatic just like with a Braille writer.
>> A peg slate from APH or the Braille Caravan available from the NFB
> Independence Market may help explain  these concepts. The pegs in the
> Braille cells move up and down and don't come out. With these tools it is
> easier to understand how dots 1, 2, 3 always refer to the same pegs.
>> Cordially,
>>
>> Ellen
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFB-Braille-Discussion
>> [mailto:nfb-braille-discussion-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Allison Hilliker via NFB-Braille-Discussion
>> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2021 1:30 PM
>> To: NFB Braille Discussion List <nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Allison Hilliker <AllisonH at Benetech.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NFB-Braille-Discussion] Slate and Stylus
>>
>> Ramona, please come to Phoenix and teach my kids. They learn best from
> anyone who's not mom. And you sound very passionate about the subject.  All
> the competent braille readers I know locally are already employed. So I'm
> left to either teach them myself, or let the public school TVIs teach them,
> and we already know how well braille instruction in public school goes. I
> didn't really understand your explanation of how to explain the slate cell
> setup differently, but I believe you. I'm sure you're right about it. I'm
> just over here doing the best I can with little support.  Honestly, truly
> braille positive folks are rare, and spread thinly throughout this country.
> I'm finding that I can't even pay somebody to teach my girls reading and
> writing in braille, and that's sad. Cuz I know full well how crucial quality
> literacy instruction is for young blind kids. So I'm attempting to do it
> myself, but nothing mom knows or does is interesting to my girls. Plus, I
> don't have all the answers. Far from it. I would give my left arm to have a
> braille positive NFB sort nearby to teach my girls. I even have funding to
> hire somebody, just no interest. I've networked via my state affiliate, and
> there's just nothing. So I'm doing what I can on my own.
>> Best,
>> Allison
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFB-Braille-Discussion
>> <nfb-braille-discussion-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ramona via
>> NFB-Braille-Discussion
>> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2021 6:56 AM
>> To: Mike Jolls via NFB-Braille-Discussion
>> <nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Ramona <walhoframona at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NFB-Braille-Discussion] Slate and Stylus
>>
>> That's why teacher training should stress first and second sides of the
> cell. They get fixated on left and right and reversal which gets passed on
> to the students. Some students become fast on the slate, and the problem
> gets eliminated. Some do not, just as many teachers do not. It is a project
> that needs attention. Maybe this is the best we can do, I would love to get
> involved in some college training for teachers of blind kids and adults. It
> just makes writing with the slate and stylus seem difficult when it is not.
> Yes you need a certain set of muscles, but you need that for writing with a
> pen or pencil. It comes with practice. It also leads to people thinking the
> computer will take care of this "difficulty." Recordings were going to
> replace Braille; now it's computers. If people like Curtis Chong and Steve
> Jacobsen use the slate, then let's not deprive our kids of it.
>> RamonaOn Jun 9, 2021 6:11 PM, Mike Jolls via NFB-Braille-Discussion
> <nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Ramona
>>>
>>> Oh I knew 1-2-3 was the first set of dots on the first side, and I knew
> 4-5-6 was on the other side.  It's just, as I tried to say, I always thought
> of 1-2-3 ONLY ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE CELL when you're looking at the slate.
> I never thought of assigning 1-2-3 to the right hand side of the cell.
> That's because my teacher told me at the start . 1-2-3 is on the left.  And
> 4-5-6 is on the right.  Since she never said anything else, I never thought
> any differently.  So when I had to write an F I had to mentally translate
> ... "1-2-4 is dots 4-5-1 when writing".  And when your mind is doing that,
> you have to do that for EVERY SYMBOL YOU WRITE.  I never thought of changing
> the dot number assignments for writing and just think 1-2-4.  That might
> have made it easier, and it probably would have made me a faster writer
> since having to mentally translate adds a half second (or something like
> that) to almost every character you write.  Thinking about it "being in
> reverse" was just natural for me.  Had I been told to change dot number
> assignments, it might have made it easier because as Allison said, I had to
> think . "what's the reverse pattern" . for almost every symbol written.
>>>
>>> Sent from
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>>> Windows 10
>>>
>>> From: Ramona via
>>> NFB-Braille-Discussion<mailto:nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 9, 2021 7:00 PM
>>> To: Mike Jolls via
>>> NFB-Braille-Discussion<mailto:nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Ramona<mailto:walhoframona at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [NFB-Braille-Discussion] Slate and Stylus
>>>
>>> 1-2-3 is always the first side of the cell. it is really that simple. I'm
> sorry teachers do not receive that information before they ever meet a
> student.
>>> RamonaOn Jun 9, 2021 4:00 PM, Mike Jolls via NFB-Braille-Discussion
> <nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> I'd like to weigh in here on "writing backwards".  I'm a partially
> sighted person who found Braille in my early 50's.  I'm 65 and I still use
> it.  I go back and forth with print and Braille.  It's great having both
> skills and I can use Braille when I know print just isn't going to work.  I
> wish I had known Braille LOT EARLIER . but it just didn't happen.
> Personally, I think every partially sighted student should learn Braille.
> Then they can use whichever method will work for them in a given situation.
> Of course that's not what this topic is about and I won't go further.
> That's another topic if we want to pursue it.
>>>> Now, onto "writing backwards" on the slate and stylus.
>>>>
>>>> When I learned Braille and learned to write with a slate and stylus, I
> ALWAYS thought that writing was OPPOSITE or BACKWARDS to how you read it.
> You write it right to left rather than when you're reading it.  You had to
> use the "opposite dot pattern" when writing a character in the cell.  That's
> backwards in my thinking.  A "B" for example is written in dots 4,5 on the
> right side of the cell rather than 1,2 on the left side of the cell (that
> assumes you are still thinking about the cell dots in the configuration used
> for reading).  And I always did this.  My teacher NEVER told me to think of
> dots 1 and 2 on the right side of the cell when writing.  I knew a B was
> dots 1,2.  I knew dots 1,2 were on the left (for reading).  Since I had to
> write them on the right hand side of the cell, I thought it was BACKWARDS.
> You had to use 4-5 to write a B which should up as dots 1-2 when you read
> it.  I remember my teacher liked to say "mirror image".  Had she told me
> that I should consider 1,2 on the right hand side of the cell for writing
> and 4-5-6 was on the left, maybe I wouldn't have thought it was backwards.
> I would have thought .. OK . 1-2-3 are on the left for reading, but they're
> on the right side for writing.  Since she didn't make that distinction, I
> saw that the dots had to be in the opposite position to that for reading so
> that when you flipped the page over, they'd be correct for reading.  So I
> just thought .. punch the opposite dots in the cell when writing a
> character.  My realization may have reinforced the idea of opposite.  That's
> just how I perceived the process.  I remember once I mentioned to her that I
> was writing the characters BACKWARDS.  I was immediately told I was wrong
> and "we don't use the word backwards, it's too confusing".  Personally I
> didn't see it as confusing.  I just saw that this was what you had to do.
> And I do remember that I made my fair share of errors when writing.  Perhaps
> that would have been less had I just considered things differently for
> writing.
>>>> Anyway that's how I learned.  It just seemed natural to think about
> writing "the opposite pattern" to get it come out right for reading.
>>>> Please feel free to comment.
>>>>
>>>> Mike Jolls
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from
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>>>> for Windows 10
>>>>
>>>> From: Susan Jolly via
>>>> NFB-Braille-Discussion<mailto:nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 9, 2021 4:08 PM
>>>> To: 'NFB Braille Discussion
>>>> List'<mailto:nfb-braille-discussion at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Susan Jolly<mailto:easjolly at ix.netcom.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NFB-Braille-Discussion] Slate and Stylus
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if opposite would be a better word? You read from
>>>> left-to-right and write from right-to-left.  They are both the opposite
> of the other one.
>>>> My father, who was born over a hundred years ago, could write print
>>>> backwards almost as easily as forwards.  I got the impression that
>>>> was something a lot of sighted people used to do. It kept other
>>>> people from looking over their shoulder and reading what they were
>>>> writing with a quick glance.  This could be helpful if they were
>>>> writing something private like a note to pass to a friend in school.
>>>> Of course the main point of this story is that all it requires is
> motivation and practice.
>>>> HTH, Susan J
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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