[nfb-db] Deafblind Group Communication

Tue Jul 7 16:03:38 UTC 2009

John,
I know it is taking me time to respond to some of your interesting remarks. 
Yes, I agree that a vast majority of people do find sign language 
interesting. Even babies as young as several months have observed me signing 
and curiously try to imitate. Like my 1-year old nephew, who would often 
imitate others who fingerspell with me. Some strangers even were so shocked 
that someone can communicate by tactile to the point that they were so eager 
to try the thing themselves. This is especially true among foreigners who 
never met a deaf person in their lives (in fact, the first time I actually 
met a deaf person was in junior school, so I have far less influence of the 
Deaf culture than you, and when I saw someone sign I thought it was very 
fascinating). But none in my family communicates with me via sign without 
alternating between some signing and typing.
I'd want to clarify, John, that in general, I do not try to even encourage 
anyone, even people in my family, to learn sign language. When I said I 
tried to do that, it was a deliberate and conscious act to learn about 
patterns and responses to sign language across cultures.
How do you communicate primarily? It depends on the situation for sure, but 
don't you like a multi-mode communication approach where you communicate not 
on how you were rasied but based on the context/situation? I often alternate 
between many modes at once (voice, typing, tactile sign, fingerspelling, 
etc). Does that sound crazy? For me it just broadens my horizon...

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Lee Clark" <johnlee at clarktouch.com>
To: "'NFB Deaf-Blind Division Mailing List'" <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-db] Deafblind Group Communication

> Mussie:
>
> Thank you for elaborating a bit.
>
> Yes, there are natural pressures going on all the time, such as my 
> naturally
> preferring to talk with a signer over a nonsigner and if the nonsigner 
> wants
> to talk with me but finds that I am more ready to talk with the signer, 
> this
> would be natural pressure for the nonsigner.  The nonsigner would then 
> have
> a choice to make, whether or not to learn signing or understand that there
> are certain other times and contexts in which I'd be more available.
>
> But I have never "tried" to "encourage" anyone in any conscious way.  I
> think that might happen if I want to have a relationship with someone
> badly--such as my own mother--and if that person doesn'[t learn sign
> language yet both that person and I expect to have a relationship, then
> maybe that's a situation where I'd ask the other person to consider
> learning.  But I have never been in such a situation.  The reason is 
> because
> everyone I want a relationship with badly already knows sign language. 
> And
> all of the other relationships that have developed have the other person
> already making the choice to learn sign language.  I have no friends who
> don't kinow sign language, and Ii guess the reason is quite simple: How
> could we have become friends in the first place without communication?  In
> order for there to be a friendship in the first place, we would have to
> communicate.  So that naturally takes care of itself.
>
> I am surprised to read about your friend bristling at the idea she needs 
> to
> learn sign language because she thinks you're the one to adapt further
> because of your perceived limitations.  I have never encountered this
> sentiment.  I mean, many, many people are eager to learn signing even if
> there's no real need for it--everywhere I go, it's like sign language 
> blooms
> like flowers all over, with almost total strangers immediately wanting to
> learn.  Example: My apartment manager, concriege, security guards, and the
> maintenance staff, upon our arrival here, all have learned up to varying
> levels, but my point is all of them were eager to learn something.  We
> didn't ask any of them to.  Other avenues of communication were available:
> note writing, SBC, etc. etc.  They didn't have to, or need to or anything
> like that.
>
> And you're telling me you have a FRIEND--not merely your apartment manager
> or a waitress at a restaurant near you, but a FRIEND--who bristles at the
> idea of signing?  That's fascinating.  I am sure it has been food for
> thought for you, too.
>
> But I want to point out that we don't have special limitations.  Your
> description of your friend leaves me with the impression she believes you
> are disabled, some kind of lesser class, and that she is not in that 
> class,
> but in a superior class or something, and she expects you to adapt or work
> around her standards.  If so, that's really screwed up, in my opinion.  No
> offense to you or your friend, but we're all human beings here and we all
> have serious limitations.  Our society may favor your friend in that it
> offers her more resources for overcoming her limitations, and our society
> may disfavor you and me in refusing or limiting the resources available to
> us, but that doesn't mean we have"more" limitations than your friend.
> Especially when it comes to friendships, we should be considered 
> equal--not
> the same, but still equal.
>
> And remember my point that two people in the relationship should think of
> what would be the best for the relationship.  Spoken English may be the 
> best
> language, the easiest, fastest, etc. for your friend.  Sign language may 
> be
> the best for you.  But what you two should ideally consider is what is 
> best
> for the relationship--not her, not you, but the relationship.  If anyone
> chooses to learn sign language, her or she is not doing so FOR you, poor
> deaf-blind Mussie, but is doing so for the relationship.  Iif anyone has 
> an
> attitude of, "Fine, I'll learn ASL FOR you, so this will help YOU," then
> that's a very bad thing and you should in fact discourage the person from
> learning sign language at all.
>
> Why?  Because this "I'm helping YOU" attitude means you won't have a 
> healthy
> relationship.  That person will fee like she or he is doing you a FAVOR 
> and
> you should be GRATEFUL, that you are the getter and he or she is the 
> giver,
> that you're the lucky beneficiary of his or her selfless KINDNESS.  I am
> sure you don't want this!  Smile.
>
> So, in some cases, it is actually better to tell someone NOT to learn sign
> language or make any kind of effort he or she feels is special, that's for
> YOU.
>
> But anyway your friend who bristles, I would agree with you on not 
> pressing
> her at all.  Never encourage.  Let the natural elements take care of
> themselves.  I mean, if you prefer signing over using the DBC to talk, 
> then
> just follow that.  If someone wants a relationship with you, but notices
> that you tend to give more attention to signers, that person can either
> accept her place in the line for your attention, your priorities, your 
> time,
> etc.  If that person is not satisfied with that place and wants to have a
> closer relationship with you, then there are things that person can try to
> accomplish this, including learning more sign language.  If someone tells
> you "I want you to spend more time with me BUT without my having to learn
> sign language," that person would be asking for something unnatural.
> Sometimes we do unnatural things like making very special efforts.  Family
> often requires unnatural actions and choices because the daughter wants to
> have a real mother very badly and will compromise anything to reach her, 
> or
> vice versa.  This can get really complicated, huh?
>
> John
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-db-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-db-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of Mussie
> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 3:22 PM
> To: NFB Deaf-Blind Division Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-db] Deafblind Group Communication
>
> Certainly "pressing" might not have been the right word, John. I should
> actually have said that I tried to encourage them. The reason for me
> attempting to "press" them was a part of my anthropological project to 
> study
> cultural patterns and language and how people react to different types of
> behaviors that relate to communicate. For instance, it appears to me that
> trying to encourage people to appreciate and learn sign language can
> backfire depending on cultural factors (for example, here we are highly
> individualistic, whereas some of my Asian buddies seemed to readily learn
> new approaches to communication). Strictly speaking, the above is
> speculation and in no way reflects actual patterns of behavior concerning
> language and culture.
> In my estimination, if you were distancing yourself from someone because
> they didn't learn sign language and you won't allow that person to 
> interact
> with you through others intimately related to you, people will actually 
> tend
> to perceive it as a pressure on them. I seem to notice this pattern 
> myself.
> For example, I have a good friend from the days of junior school, but I 
> tend
> to talk more frequently with another friend who knows sign language. The
> nonsigning friend eventually told me he feels as though I was pressing him
> to learn sign language since I had the option of the SBC to communicate 
> with
> him.
> Well, I will elaborate the subject more thoroughly at a different time.
> Right now I am running late for something.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Lee Clark" <johnlee at clarktouch.com>
> To: "'NFB Deaf-Blind Division Mailing List'" <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 1:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-db] Deafblind Group Communication
>
>
>> Mussie:
>>
>> Thank you for sharing about pressing your friends.  But I am puzzled. 
>> How
>> is it that you got into the position to press them in the first place?  I
>> mean, I have never, not once, pressed any one to learn sign language.
>> I've
>> never had to ask it or insist on it or anything like that.  So I've never
>> been in a position where I found it necessary or needed to press anyone.
>>
>> So I am really confused by what you mean . . .  Can you elaborate?
>>
>> John
>>
>>
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