[Nfb-science] Hello

Mon Jul 12 16:23:57 UTC 2010

Hello,
    Yes, I am sighted, and have worked with both completely blind 
individuals and low-vision.  I agree with Larry - 3D in a tactile diagram is 
just wrong!  I don't see how anyone could figure that out.  I will tell you 
that most sighted individuals look at tactile diagrams of maps, etc and 
say - yes that is adapted just fine, but I try to do everything without 
sight first before I ask someone else to do it - yes, I can read Braille. 
Tactile images are just not the same.  For instance, that tactile map you 
speak about - if someone walked you through all that you were feeling, you 
could probably make better sense out of it, but the map on its own can be 
very confusing, because you are processing the map piece by piece.  If given 
a US map, and you wouldn't know if the peninsula part was Florida or Lake 
Michigan without some verbal description of what part of the country we are 
speaking about.  On mathematical tactile graphics often there are "lines" 
drawn in where the transcriber is trying to show the length of the 
measurement.  In print, this is simply stated.  Since Braille, is larger 
there is often additional lines to the units and this further complicates 
the shape.   I have a college level physics book that has 23 extra volumes 
that include the graphics in the text.  It of course took thousands of 
dollars to produce, and in my experience not adequate in describing the 
images.  I think we need to find better ways to describe these image issues. 
I think two dimensional images should be done through verbal descriptions 
with the tactile graphic.  i.e..  you have a trapezoid with bases of 4 cm 
and 2cm and height of 6 cm.  With 3D images - I think that am actual model 
should be included.  More and more images are being projected on the 
computer, and while this may be adequate for those with low-vision and for 
those who are truly blind, this can be a huge stumbling block.  There are 
more and more programs that allow show images and rotate these images 
on-line or allow the user to "place" layers onto existing images - for 
example, you can "point and drag" different features to show different 
terrain, populations, etc onto existing maps - none of this is assessable to 
the blind, and all of this could be verbally described to explain where the 
lakes, mountains were, where population was most dense, etc.  We need to 
look at how to make these new ways of teaching more accessible to those who 
don't see!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
To: "NFB Science and Engineering Division List" <nfb-science at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Nfb-science] Hello


> Hi Karen --
> Are you saying that a tactile graphic should always include a verbal
> description? I think this could be helpful, but sometimes verbal
> descriptions can confuse as much as they can enlighten.  It depends on the
> picture.
> As a person who had low vision while getting my degrees, I used a CCTV to
> enlarge the pictures -- some pics I couldn't see as my vision was quite
> distorted -- but the simple graphs and diagrams such as math graphs and
> circuits or other diagrams that contained only outlines and no shading, I
> had no trouble seeing.
> Moreover, my vision was so bad that I had to magnify to almost the max to
> zoom in on what I needed to see, and I had only a foggy idea of the 
> context
> of what I was looking at.  This caused me a little difficulty in some
> subjects, but nothing insurmountable.
>
> As for tactile pictures, I learned braille early but seldom used it until 
> I
> lost the rest of my vision. Hence I know how to read it, but my fingers 
> are
> just not sensitive in identifying what is in a picture.  Case in point, at
> the campus where I did my undergraduate studies there was a large tactile
> map of campus on one wall of one of the blind reading rooms in the 
> library.
> Even though I walked all over campus, I found it hard to follow what the 
> map
> "looked like" in the big picture.  I don't know if it was a translation 
> step
> from tactile to visual that I was trying to do -- but reading tactile
> diagrams was simply difficult.  I wonder if this is true for all partially
> sighted students.  How do totally blind persons do with tactile graphics?
> I am still working on my braille and tactile sensitivity and perception.
> I compare it to learning a foreign language -- you're not supposed to 
> resort
> to translating words in your head from one language to another --  
> similarly
> in tactile reading, I think you have to suppress the tendency of 
> visualizing
> everything -- in the visual cortex or wherever that is done -- but get 
> used
> to just recognizing touch and orientation etc.
>
> Anyone want to shoot my hypothesis out of the water? *smile*
>
> Karen, are you sighted?
> --le
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "KEC at VISI.COM" <kec at visi.com>
> To: "NFB Science and Engineering Division List" <nfb-science at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 10:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nfb-science] Hello
>
>
> Hello,
>    This tactile graphics is an issue that keeps coming up.  As a sighted
> person, and a "science person" who has transcribed science/math materials 
> as
> well as tutored some blind students, I believe that the tactile graphics 
> are
> fine if use with an educated reader who can clearly explain what you are
> feeling.  I think too often the graphic looks good to a sighted person, 
> and
> yet is misleading to someone who doesn't see.  Also, since some people 
> with
> visual impairment see well enough to have images enlarged on the computer,
> it is only a subset of the blind community who truly relies on tactile
> images.  I would like to see if we can have educated individuals who can
> give a verbal description that accompanies tactile images/materials.  I 
> have
> repeated seen blind individuals not have the same understanding of a 
> graphic
> image as sighted ones.  This is just based on the "snap shot" view that a
> sighted indivual has that is not duplicated when you are feeling the whole
> image.  Simple verbal descriptions that give an understanding of what the
> "larger picture is" and possible 3D models rather than images would be a
> great improvement. I have been trying to encourage educators of this
> approach, but they complain about the costs and state this is how it has
> always been done.  If anyone on the list agrees and have an ideas on how 
> we
> could make this improvement, I believe that is would help many.
> Karen
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kartik Sawhney" <sawhney.kartik at gmail.com>
> To: "nfb-science" <nfb-science at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 2:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nfb-science] Hello
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Thanks a lot Mike for the reply from your side. I wanted to know if
>> these techniques enabled you to understand all sorts of diagrams with
>> ease. As it is, Physics curriculum is full of diagrams only. How did
>> you manage 3-dimentional figures. Further, explaining complex
>> structures as loops when dealing with electrostatics becomes tough.
>> Isn't it? How did you manage it then? I would request other people on
>> list to kindly comment and help me out as well. Further, is the
>> curriculum of the American universities as MIT  and others have a
>> curriculum for Computer Sciences and Electronic Engineering which is
>> suitable for completely blind students?
>>
>> Regards,
>> -Kartik.
>>
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>
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