[nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
David Andrews
dandrews at visi.com
Fri Oct 16 18:14:29 UTC 2009
John:
I think we are going on a lot of second and third hand
information. I do not know for a fact that any of our centers
require rock climbing. I am relatively sure BLIND Inc. does
not. Somebody posted that Colorado does -- and it may have even been
an employee, but I am not positive. Further, I seriously doubt that
it would be as black and white a thing as both sides are making
it. One of the strengths of our Centers is that they find ways to
challenge each individual, no matter his/her level. So, I doubt the
requirements and programs are as rigid as everyone would make them
out to be. I would guess, like with the guide dog issues previously
discussed that there is more grey in the picture then people are acknowledging.
Dave
At 11:38 AM 10/16/2009, you wrote:
>But I have no preconceived notions of the NFB. I have no idea why
>you'd assume I do. My opinions on this issue were created the same
>way they always are -- by facts and logic. If you have either of
>those, facts or logic, that dispute my points, I would be glad to hear them.
>
>The facts are that this whole thing started when someone said they
>didn't want to attend a NFB center because it required rock climbing
>and some (many?) NFB centers do require those attending to climb
>rocks. Logically, it follows, that people unwilling to climb rocks
>would be excluded. Only those who are already motivated enough to
>climb rocks would attend. Now, what part of this is in dispute? Are
>you saying that these centers requiring rock climbing don't
>exist? Are you disputing the logic that if someone is unwilling to
>climb rocks, they would not be able to attend one of those centers?
>
>If anyone is making assumptions based on his preconceived notions,
>it's probably you. You're too close to the NFB to see it's warts.
>Are there any policies or procedures of the NFB that you disapprove
>of? You don't seem to have agreed with any of my criticisms of the
>NFB. Is the NFB perfect then?
>
>Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 10:02 AM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>
>
>>John:
>>
>>I think you are making assumptions that just aren't true -- because
>>they fit your preconceived notions of the NFB. My agency pays for
>>and sends students to BLIND Inc. all the time. These students
>>aren't all NFB members, and they have the full spectrum of
>>abilities. They also have varying degrees of motivation, and they
>>also have varying degrees of success. So, the reality is that NFB
>>centers serve a range of people --
>>not just super blind persons.
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>At 04:46 PM 10/15/2009, you wrote:
>>>In my opinion, it's just another example of the NFB turning it's
>>>back on the part of the blind community that needs it most. This
>>>is exactly why the NFB philosophy is so harmful. Rock climbing
>>>just isn't for everyone. You shouldn't have to be super, rock
>>>climbing blind guy (or gal) to receive services from the NFB.
>>>
>>>The NFB philosophy blames the victim. If you aren't making it in
>>>this world, it's your own fault. Get in here and get some climbing
>>>in and everything will be rosy. But I'd like to see some real
>>>evidence that rock climbing makes any difference what so ever. Oh,
>>>I have little doubt that those who go through with the climbing do
>>>better than those who don't. But that's most likely because
>>>they're more motivated in the first place. Of course people who
>>>are willing to climb rocks do better than those who don't. But
>>>what about all those people who are scared away from the NFB
>>>centers because they have to climb rocks? Doesn't the NFB have a
>>>responsibility to aid those people too? Don't they have an even
>>>*greater* responsibility to help those people?
>>>
>>>Essentially, the NFB philosophy says we're only going to help
>>>people who don't really need our help that much. We're only going
>>>to help people who probably would make it on their own anyway. If
>>>you're really messed up, well, too bad for you. If you're not
>>>super blind guy (or gal) we're not interested in helping you.
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>To: "Chad Allen" <chad at chadallenmagic.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing
>>>List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:43 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>
>>>
>>>>Good afternoon everyone,
>>>>
>>>> Exactly. Anyone who doesn't want to fulfill this requirement for
>>>>successful completion of training at one of our centers needs to rethink
>>>>their choice of orientation and adjustment center. Informed choice rules!
>>>>
>>>>Peter Donahue
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Allen" <chad at chadallenmagic.com>
>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:03 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It is considered a requirement for graduation from the center.
>>>>Everything is
>>>>discussed prior to enrollment and is simply par for the course.
>>>>
>>>>-original message-
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>Date: 10/15/2009 10:31 AM
>>>>
>>>>oh yea,
>>>>
>>>>try getting out of it!
>>>>
>>>>Bryan Schulz
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:44 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>No one is forced. It is, to my knowledge, just an option.
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:03 AM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm unclear as to the purpose of these centers? Do people go to them for
>>>>>>the opportunity to do things like rock climbing? Because I would imagine
>>>>>>that if the NFB didn't provide opportunities like that, it would be very
>>>>>>difficult to find them otherwise. I can't imagine most rock climbing
>>>>>>places letting blind people participate. Heck, one time I tried to sign
>>>>>>up for a wood working class and they kicked me out when they found out I
>>>>>>was blind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But if a person wants to work on his job and mobility skills, he
>>>>>>shouldn't be forced to climb rocks. I wouldn't have a problem with state
>>>>>>governments supporting recreational facilities for the blind. But if
>>>>>>these centers are intended primarily as rehab centers, then they
>>>>>>shouldn't be forcing people to climb rocks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>---- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue"
>>>>>><pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:17 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hello Jim and listers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Okay let me take a stab at this one. I'll insert my comments
>>>>>>>following
>>>>>>>yours and will indicate them with the letter A. Here goes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hello all!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Do all NFB centers insist that clients rock climb? I'm referring to the
>>>>>>>three NFB centers in Minnesota, Colorado, and Louisiana as well as
>>>>>>>centers
>>>>>>>which are a part of a state's rehab program as is the case in Iowa and
>>>>>>>Nebraska?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A. Yes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can a client be exempt from this exercise due to health, age or
>>>>>>>other complications?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A.
>>>>>>> Each case is considered on an individual basis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Have people been denied services from all of the above
>>>>>>>agencies if they refused to rock climb or they obtained a doctor's
>>>>>>>statement
>>>>>>>that they shouldn't engage in such activity?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A.
>>>>>>> Recall the discussion of informed choice we've had from
>>>>>>> time-to-time.
>>>>>>>These centers have a set curriculum students are required to take
>>>>>>>including
>>>>>>>participation in recreational activities such as rock climbing. Such
>>>>>>>exemptions could be viewed as attempts by center students to "Menuize"
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>training. They never realize the full benefit of the program if they
>>>>>>>attempt
>>>>>>>to "Water down" these center curriculums by requesting exemptions from
>>>>>>>this
>>>>>>>or that part of the training. Here again each case is considered on an
>>>>>>>individual basis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What exempts people from this
>>>>>>>activity and if they are exempt, can they still receive services from
>>>>>>>our
>>>>>>>NFB agencies?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A.
>>>>>>> Much of my answer can be found above but I'll add here that if a
>>>>>>>student
>>>>>>>chooses not to participate in a class or activity all center students
>>>>>>>must
>>>>>>>attend or take part in they should reconsider their choice of
>>>>>>>orientation
>>>>>>>and adjustment center if they're unwilling to participate in the entire
>>>>>>>center curriculum.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A friend of mine returned from one of these centers. He has a badly
>>>>>>>sprained leg or he has pulled ligaments in his leg! Needless to say, he
>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>out of the program or is immobile for an undetermined amount of time!
>>>>>>>This
>>>>>>>person was otherwise happy with the program and I commend this person
>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>giving it a good try but I think there comes a time when a person my age
>>>>>>>who
>>>>>>>is twice 30 shouldn't attempt such a thing! If I were in my 20s and
>>>>>>>30s, I
>>>>>>>wouldn't question this but when one is in their late 40s and beyond, I'd
>>>>>>>question whether this is such a good idea!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Any thoughts?A.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Our centers have had students in their 80s participate in roc
>>>>>>>climbing,
>>>>>>>skydiving, and other high-impact activities. There are several accounts
>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>blind senior citizens that attended our centers and participated in all
>>>>>>>aspects of their programs and had a darn good time doing so published in
>>>>>>>The
>>>>>>>Braille Monitor. Your friend needs to not allow his accident prevent him
>>>>>>>from returning to the NFB center to finish his training. There are
>>>>>>>numerous
>>>>>>>accounts of students who due to accident or illness were unable to
>>>>>>>complete
>>>>>>>the initial part of their training but returned later to finish. This
>>>>>>>should
>>>>>>>not be a problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as doctors exemptions go remember that health care
>>>>>>>professionals
>>>>>>>are influanced by the same prevailing attitudes and beliefs about
>>>>>>>blindness
>>>>>>>and our capabilities as is the general public. It would be easy for a
>>>>>>>doctor
>>>>>>>to "issue a letter requesting that a student not be required to
>>>>>>>participate
>>>>>>>in this or that part of the center program due to these mistaken
>>>>>>>attitudes
>>>>>>>and beliefs about the blind. What happens if that same doctor is
>>>>>>>presented
>>>>>>>with a health report for a blind individual in their 80s wishing to
>>>>>>>attend a
>>>>>>>sports camp where rock climbing is one of the activities offered and
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>patient chooses to participate in that activity. There's the possibility
>>>>>>>that the doctor may discourage this person from engaging in rock
>>>>>>>climbing
>>>>>>>even though the person is healthy. They can thank the patient who
>>>>>>>mistakenly
>>>>>>>believed that older blind individuals shouldn't participate in this
>>>>>>>activity. Let me recommend that you take some rock climbing lessons and
>>>>>>>then
>>>>>>>reread your post.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope I was able to shed some light on this issue for you. All the
>>>>>>>best.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Peter Donahue
>>
>>
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