[nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
Mike Lickiss
mlickiss at verizon.net
Fri Oct 16 20:30:14 UTC 2009
Hello to all
To everyone out there that's been involved in this discussion and to anybody
else that's been reading along, please allow me to offer some hard core
facts on NFB training centers, rock climbing, and other center activities.
I attended and completed the program at the Louisiana Center for the Blind,
or LCB, from June, 2005 to March, 2006. I was 38 at the time and I went from
fully sighted to totally blind in one day just two years earlier. The LCB
takes two trips a year; a white water rafting trip and a rock climbing plus
horse back riding trip. The entire center goes, all students and staff. The
only requirement, and I mean the only requirement, is that each student must
go on the trip. That's it. When we were on the rock climbing trip, everyone
had to go on the hike to the rock face but once there, climbing was
optional. There were a few that were afraid to do it but with encouragement
and support from other students, they all gave it a try. No one was forced
or coerced into climbing and unlike what someone said a few days ago, it is
not a requirement to graduate. You are only required to go on the trip. Let
me re-emphasize that it is not a requirement to rock climb in order to
graduate. It was great to see the team work and support given to those who
needed it and even though not everyone made it to the top, we all had a
great time.
The LCB and the other two NFB training centers seem hard and rigid to people
who have heard about the training program but have not been, believe me,
I've heard too many un-truths from enough people in the past 3 years. The
NFB centers set a high standard and are challenging for the students and
thank god they do. It was the best nine months. I hope this has been useful
information and maybe dispel some of the rumors and un-truths about the NFB
training centers.
Thank you
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John G. Heim
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 12:38 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
But I have no preconceived notions of the NFB. I have no idea why you'd
assume I do. My opinions on this issue were created the same way they
always are -- by facts and logic. If you have either of those, facts or
logic, that dispute my points, I would be glad to hear them.
The facts are that this whole thing started when someone said they didn't
want to attend a NFB center because it required rock climbing and some
(many?) NFB centers do require those attending to climb rocks. Logically,
it follows, that people unwilling to climb rocks would be excluded. Only
those who are already motivated enough to climb rocks would attend. Now,
what part of this is in dispute? Are you saying that these centers requiring
rock climbing don't exist? Are you disputing the logic that if someone is
unwilling to climb rocks, they would not be able to attend one of those
centers?
If anyone is making assumptions based on his preconceived notions, it's
probably you. You're too close to the NFB to see it's warts. Are there any
policies or procedures of the NFB that you disapprove of? You don't seem to
have agreed with any of my criticisms of the NFB. Is the NFB perfect then?
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
> John:
>
> I think you are making assumptions that just aren't true -- because they
> fit your preconceived notions of the NFB. My agency pays for and sends
> students to BLIND Inc. all the time. These students aren't all NFB
> members, and they have the full spectrum of abilities. They also have
> varying degrees of motivation, and they also have varying degrees of
> success. So, the reality is that NFB centers serve a range of people --
> not just super blind persons.
>
> Dave
>
> At 04:46 PM 10/15/2009, you wrote:
>>In my opinion, it's just another example of the NFB turning it's back on
>>the part of the blind community that needs it most. This is exactly why
>>the NFB philosophy is so harmful. Rock climbing just isn't for everyone.
>>You shouldn't have to be super, rock climbing blind guy (or gal) to
>>receive services from the NFB.
>>
>>The NFB philosophy blames the victim. If you aren't making it in this
>>world, it's your own fault. Get in here and get some climbing in and
>>everything will be rosy. But I'd like to see some real evidence that rock
>>climbing makes any difference what so ever. Oh, I have little doubt that
>>those who go through with the climbing do better than those who don't. But
>>that's most likely because they're more motivated in the first place. Of
>>course people who are willing to climb rocks do better than those who
>>don't. But what about all those people who are scared away from the NFB
>>centers because they have to climb rocks? Doesn't the NFB have a
>>responsibility to aid those people too? Don't they have an even *greater*
>>responsibility to help those people?
>>
>>Essentially, the NFB philosophy says we're only going to help people who
>>don't really need our help that much. We're only going to help people who
>>probably would make it on their own anyway. If you're really messed up,
>>well, too bad for you. If you're not super blind guy (or gal) we're not
>>interested in helping you.
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue"
>><pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>To: "Chad Allen" <chad at chadallenmagic.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing List"
>><nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:43 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>
>>
>>>Good afternoon everyone,
>>>
>>> Exactly. Anyone who doesn't want to fulfill this requirement for
>>>successful completion of training at one of our centers needs to rethink
>>>their choice of orientation and adjustment center. Informed choice rules!
>>>
>>>Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Allen" <chad at chadallenmagic.com>
>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:03 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>
>>>
>>>It is considered a requirement for graduation from the center. Everything
>>>is
>>>discussed prior to enrollment and is simply par for the course.
>>>
>>>-original message-
>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
>>>Date: 10/15/2009 10:31 AM
>>>
>>>oh yea,
>>>
>>>try getting out of it!
>>>
>>>Bryan Schulz
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:44 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>
>>>
>>>>No one is forced. It is, to my knowledge, just an option.
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:03 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I'm unclear as to the purpose of these centers? Do people go to them
>>>>>for
>>>>>the opportunity to do things like rock climbing? Because I would
>>>>>imagine
>>>>>that if the NFB didn't provide opportunities like that, it would be
>>>>>very
>>>>>difficult to find them otherwise. I can't imagine most rock climbing
>>>>>places letting blind people participate. Heck, one time I tried to sign
>>>>>up for a wood working class and they kicked me out when they found out
>>>>>I
>>>>>was blind.
>>>>>
>>>>>But if a person wants to work on his job and mobility skills, he
>>>>>shouldn't be forced to climb rocks. I wouldn't have a problem with
>>>>>state
>>>>>governments supporting recreational facilities for the blind. But if
>>>>>these centers are intended primarily as rehab centers, then they
>>>>>shouldn't be forcing people to climb rocks.
>>>>>
>>>>>---- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue"
>>>>><pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:17 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hello Jim and listers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Okay let me take a stab at this one. I'll insert my comments
>>>>>>following
>>>>>>yours and will indicate them with the letter A. Here goes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hello all!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Do all NFB centers insist that clients rock climb? I'm referring to
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>three NFB centers in Minnesota, Colorado, and Louisiana as well as
>>>>>>centers
>>>>>>which are a part of a state's rehab program as is the case in Iowa and
>>>>>>Nebraska?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A. Yes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can a client be exempt from this exercise due to health, age or
>>>>>>other complications?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A.
>>>>>> Each case is considered on an individual basis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Have people been denied services from all of the above
>>>>>>agencies if they refused to rock climb or they obtained a doctor's
>>>>>>statement
>>>>>>that they shouldn't engage in such activity?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A.
>>>>>> Recall the discussion of informed choice we've had from
>>>>>> time-to-time.
>>>>>>These centers have a set curriculum students are required to take
>>>>>>including
>>>>>>participation in recreational activities such as rock climbing. Such
>>>>>>exemptions could be viewed as attempts by center students to "Menuize"
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>training. They never realize the full benefit of the program if they
>>>>>>attempt
>>>>>>to "Water down" these center curriculums by requesting exemptions from
>>>>>>this
>>>>>>or that part of the training. Here again each case is considered on an
>>>>>>individual basis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What exempts people from this
>>>>>>activity and if they are exempt, can they still receive services from
>>>>>>our
>>>>>>NFB agencies?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A.
>>>>>> Much of my answer can be found above but I'll add here that if a
>>>>>>student
>>>>>>chooses not to participate in a class or activity all center students
>>>>>>must
>>>>>>attend or take part in they should reconsider their choice of
>>>>>>orientation
>>>>>>and adjustment center if they're unwilling to participate in the
>>>>>>entire
>>>>>>center curriculum.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A friend of mine returned from one of these centers. He has a badly
>>>>>>sprained leg or he has pulled ligaments in his leg! Needless to say,
>>>>>>he
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>out of the program or is immobile for an undetermined amount of time!
>>>>>>This
>>>>>>person was otherwise happy with the program and I commend this person
>>>>>>for
>>>>>>giving it a good try but I think there comes a time when a person my
>>>>>>age
>>>>>>who
>>>>>>is twice 30 shouldn't attempt such a thing! If I were in my 20s and
>>>>>>30s, I
>>>>>>wouldn't question this but when one is in their late 40s and beyond,
>>>>>>I'd
>>>>>>question whether this is such a good idea!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Any thoughts?A.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our centers have had students in their 80s participate in roc
>>>>>>climbing,
>>>>>>skydiving, and other high-impact activities. There are several
>>>>>>accounts
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>blind senior citizens that attended our centers and participated in
>>>>>>all
>>>>>>aspects of their programs and had a darn good time doing so published
>>>>>>in
>>>>>>The
>>>>>>Braille Monitor. Your friend needs to not allow his accident prevent
>>>>>>him
>>>>>>from returning to the NFB center to finish his training. There are
>>>>>>numerous
>>>>>>accounts of students who due to accident or illness were unable to
>>>>>>complete
>>>>>>the initial part of their training but returned later to finish. This
>>>>>>should
>>>>>>not be a problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as doctors exemptions go remember that health care
>>>>>>professionals
>>>>>>are influanced by the same prevailing attitudes and beliefs about
>>>>>>blindness
>>>>>>and our capabilities as is the general public. It would be easy for a
>>>>>>doctor
>>>>>>to "issue a letter requesting that a student not be required to
>>>>>>participate
>>>>>>in this or that part of the center program due to these mistaken
>>>>>>attitudes
>>>>>>and beliefs about the blind. What happens if that same doctor is
>>>>>>presented
>>>>>>with a health report for a blind individual in their 80s wishing to
>>>>>>attend a
>>>>>>sports camp where rock climbing is one of the activities offered and
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>patient chooses to participate in that activity. There's the
>>>>>>possibility
>>>>>>that the doctor may discourage this person from engaging in rock
>>>>>>climbing
>>>>>>even though the person is healthy. They can thank the patient who
>>>>>>mistakenly
>>>>>>believed that older blind individuals shouldn't participate in this
>>>>>>activity. Let me recommend that you take some rock climbing lessons
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>then
>>>>>>reread your post.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope I was able to shed some light on this issue for you. All
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Peter Donahue
>
>
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