[nfb-talk] Extra Tax Exemption

[ckrugman at sbcglobal.net]

In my experience I have never heard or run across any negative feelings 
about it on the part of society as a whole. The benefits of it for 
idnividuals outweigh any alleged unproven detriments as a whole.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing List" 
<nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Extra Tax Exemption


> One person's trivia is another person's serious issue.  If the presence of 
> that box adversely influences attitudes about blindness and blind people, 
> which I think it does, then this is a serious issue.
>
> Dave
>
> At 01:11 PM 4/23/2010, you wrote:
>>People are sniping at trivia.  It doesn't matter if there is a box on the
>>tax form.  Lets talk about serious issues.
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 9:52 AM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Extra Tax Exemption
>>
>>
>>It is really annoying the way you keep assuming your opinions are facts.
>>There's no evidence that the extra exemption causes harm.  That's nothing
>>but speculation. And you want to move ahead to figuring ways to solve 
>>these
>>problems that probably don't even exist.
>>
>>There are 2 facts we can agree on:
>>1. There is a problem with SSI in that you lose your benefits if you get a
>>job.
>>2. Too many blind people are unemployed.
>>
>>Those are facts. That the extra exemption on a tax form contributes to the
>>unemployment rate is not a fact.
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 2:26 AM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Extra Tax Exemption
>>
>>
>> > Well, I , for one, would not disagree with you Dave.  It does indeed do
>> > harm.  Perhaps we should undertake a discussion then about the ways in
>> > which we can become well off enough to loosen ourselves from the chains 
>> > of
>> > government dependency.  All right.  Let's use this then as a starting
>> > point shall we?  Let's have some ideas then.
>> >
>> >
>> > Sincerely,
>> > The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>> >
>> > Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>> >
>> > e-mail:
>> > rforetjr at comcast dot net
>> > skype:
>> > barefootedray
>> >
>> > On Apr 22, 2010, at 9:48 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>> >
>> >> We tell ourselves that we have added expenses -- but I am not sure 
>> >> this
>> >> is true.  We have different expenses, readers, drivers, cabs, etc., 
>> >> but
>> >> in general we don't have to buy cars and auto insurance.  They are 
>> >> quite
>> >> expensive, so I think that for most people it is a wash.
>> >>
>> >> As to the extra exemption -- I take it too, to not take it won't make 
>> >> any
>> >> difference in the system so there is no reason not to take it. 
>> >> However,
>> >> everybody who fills out a tax return sees that you get an extra break
>> >> from the government, like the elderly.  Why -- because you need it, 
>> >> you
>> >> can't do for yourself so you need government help.  Everybody sees 
>> >> that
>> >> and I think it does us great damage, and contributes to our high
>> >> unemployment rate.
>> >>
>> >> But we are not well enough off, and self aware enough, as a group, to
>> >> reject that benefit.
>> >>
>> >> I suspect many people will disagree with me, and say it does no harm, 
>> >> but
>> >> I don't believe that for one.
>> >>
>> >> Dave
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> At 05:23 PM 4/22/2010, you wrote:
>> >>> considering the added expenses that blind people incur what is wrong
>> >>> with the extra tax exemption? I for one will gladly continue to 
>> >>> accept
>> >>> it without shame or guilt.
>> >>> Chuck
>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" 
>> >>> <dandrews at visi.com>
>> >>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:19 PM
>> >>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Ray:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I think you ask some good questions -- questions that have nothing 
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> do with being a liberal or a conservative, or a dog (smile.)  Your
>> >>>> language in this message is diplomatic and considered and I think
>> >>>> accomplishes more than some previous messages.  People get caught up 
>> >>>> in
>> >>>> this and that and don't hear the message.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I think that as a community we will ultimately decide that the price
>> >>>> for things like the extra tax exemption, SSI, SSDI, etc., is just to
>> >>>> high, but with a 70 percent unemployment rate, we are just not there
>> >>>> yet.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> No, this system isn't working, but the chance of a wholesale
>> >>>> replacement is slim.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Dave
>> >>>>
>> >>>> At 11:14 PM 4/20/2010, you wrote:
>> >>>>> All I'm asking now is this.  do we blind people have the 
>> >>>>> intestsinal
>> >>>>> fortitude to frankly face the fact that the SSI check is not the 
>> >>>>> best
>> >>>>> way for us to get ahead in this society?  If even asking that is a
>> >>>>> crime in the federation, mark me down as being about as guilty as 
>> >>>>> one
>> >>>>> can get. Sometimes, the truth hurts, and that fact does not negate 
>> >>>>> the
>> >>>>> eventual fact that we're going to have to shut down SSI and create
>> >>>>> something better.  Yes, I'll again speak frankly here.  We need to
>> >>>>> shut down SSI and social security.  those things punish the blind 
>> >>>>> for
>> >>>>> trying to work.  I said it last night and I'll say it again.  IF a
>> >>>>> blind person tries to go to work, they don't make enough money to
>> >>>>> live, and yet, too much money to get needed help.  How do I know? 
>> >>>>> It
>> >>>>> happened to me.  So, with all due respect, don't tell me I know not 
>> >>>>> of
>> >>>>> what I speak!!!  I'm not saying that those who need help should not
>> >>>>> get it; but, can we not even be honest with ourselves and each 
>> >>>>> other
>> >>>>> about the fact that our
>> >  current set up may not be the best way to cary us in to the future? 
>> > IS
>> > that too hard to do?  Is that too much to ask?  I said what I said in 
>> > this
>> > message and there's no taking it back.  Even if I wanted to, it's too
>> > late.  If we can't even be honest with ourselves about this, what have 
>> > we
>> > come too?
>> >>>>> Sincerely,
>> >>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> E-Mail:
>> >>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>> >>>>> Skype:
>> >>>>> barefootedray
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> > Stepping back and examining our points of view makes a lot of
>> >>>>> sense to me and it is something I try to do often.
>> >>>>> > Actually, one element of Ray's comments that fits into this
>> >>>>> notion is that we do need to look at what we ask of society to
>> >>>>> > figure out what we need as opposed to what we want.  I further
>> >>>>> believe we need to think about the cost of what we
>> >>>>> > might request society and what the benefits are to us and to
>> >>>>> society.  These seem like reasonable questions that should
>> >>>>> > not be seen as conservative or liberal.  Still, if this is even
>> >>>>> what Ray is saying, I find it very hard to believe that our
>> >>>>> > overall status, the 70% unemployed for example, is related to a
>> >>>>> sense of entitlement.  As we make progress, we do need
>> >>>>> > to be prepared to consider that some benefits of various types
>> >>>>> are no longer needed.   However, we have some pretty
>> >>>>> > large obstacles to overcome before we get there.  Labeling us as
>> >>>>> having a sense of entitlement that overshadows the
>> >>>>> > other barriers we encounter really does not recognize
>> >>>>> reality.  To extreme conservatives and to extreme liberals, life is
>> >>>>> > just a theory.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > Best regards,
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > Steve Jacobson
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:22 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in
>> >>>>> >> discussing
>> >>>>> >> liberal vs conservative issues in a rational manner. People 
>> >>>>> >> should
>> >>>>> >> occasionally take a step back and examine their point of view.
>> >>>>> Far too many
>> >>>>> >> people make up their minds and then start casting around for
>> >>>>> >> reasons >> to
>> >>>>> >> believe what they've already decided.  That's a recipe for
>> >>>>> disaster.  That's
>> >>>>> >> how mistakes are made.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm thinking
>> >>>>> of calling
>> >>>>> >> it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in freedom 
>> >>>>> >> of
>> >>>>> >>  >> speech.
>> >>>>> >> And most people even understand why its so important. Its not
>> >>>>> just because
>> >>>>> >> we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so
>> >>>>> important is that it
>> >>>>> >> allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete against each
>> >>>>> other in a
>> >>>>> >> society with free speech and most of the time, the best idea 
>> >>>>> >> wins.
>> >>>>> >>  >> Its
>> >>>>> >> called the market place of ideas.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> But very few people apply the concept of the market place of
>> >>>>> ideas to their
>> >>>>> >> own opinions.  Its just not even something that occurs to most
>> >>>>> people to do.
>> >>>>> >> Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then start
>> >>>>> casting about
>> >>>>> >> for information to support what they already believe.  And that
>> >>>>> is a recipe
>> >>>>> >> for wrongness.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you
>> >>>>> believe, you
>> >>>>> >> will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made me a 
>> >>>>> >> better
>> >>>>> >>  >> chess
>> >>>>> >> player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and lost almost 
>> >>>>> >> all
>> >>>>> >> of >> my
>> >>>>> >> matches until I started sitting back occasionally and trying to 
>> >>>>> >> get
>> >>>>> >> a
>> >>>>> >> realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What are my >>
>> >>>>> >> opponent's
>> >>>>> >> strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages I might not
>> >>>>> see? Is he
>> >>>>> >> missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? What's going on in 
>> >>>>> >> my
>> >>>>> >> opponent's head? From then on, I won almost every match. It was
>> >>>>> like magic.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> The real message in the chess tournament story is not the
>> >>>>> >> importance >> of
>> >>>>> >> trying to look into your opponents mind. The real insight there
>> >>>>> is how few
>> >>>>> >> people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are crummy chess 
>> >>>>> >>  >>
>> >>>>> >> players.
>> >>>>> >> Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use 
>> >>>>> >> it
>> >>>>> >> everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your political
>> >>>>> opinions, take
>> >>>>> >> a step back occasionally and consider whether they're working or
>> >>>>> >> not. >> Do
>> >>>>> >> they actually make sense? Does history support or dispute my
>> >>>>> beliefs? Do I
>> >>>>> >> believe what I believe because I want to or because of the
>> >>>>> facts?  If more
>> >>>>> >> people did this, they'd be right a lot more often and the world
>> >>>>> would be a
>> >>>>> >> better place.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>> >> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>> >>>>> >> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
>> >>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind 
>> >>>>> >> Conservatives
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> Hi all,
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as
>> >>>>> >> conservative >> and
>> >>>>> >> "right wing" are words.  The fact is that these words have been
>> >>>>> >> used >> to
>> >>>>> >> inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate into
>> >>>>> >> anger >> and
>> >>>>> >> downright polarization on a scale we have never seen before.  I 
>> >>>>> >> and
>> >>>>> >>  >> others
>> >>>>> >> survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to 
>> >>>>> >> see
>> >>>>> >> our
>> >>>>> >> potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our resolve
>> >>>>> disintegrate
>> >>>>> >> along party lines.  Folks, it matters not our political
>> >>>>> leanings.  Knock off
>> >>>>> >> the words and find ways to come together.  Stop calling each
>> >>>>> other names and
>> >>>>> >> recognize that we all have a job to do.  In the case of the NFB 
>> >>>>> >> it
>> >>>>> >> is >> to
>> >>>>> >> promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all blind 
>> >>>>> >>  >>
>> >>>>> >> Americans
>> >>>>> >> should have.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> Mike Hingson
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>> >>>>> >> "Speaking with Vision"
>> >>>>> >> Michael Hingson, President
>> >>>>> >> (415) 827-4084
>> >>>>> >> info at michaelhingson.com
>> >>>>> >> www.michaelhingson.com
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>> >>>>> >> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>> >> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>> >> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On
>> >>>>> >> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>> >>>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
>> >>>>> >> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> >>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> Just being honest.  That's all.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> Sincerely,
>> >>>>> >> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> E-Mail:
>> >>>>> >> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>> >>>>> >> Skype:
>> >>>>> >> barefootedray
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >>> I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this rationally
>> >>>>> you refrain
>> >>>>> >> from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The
>> >>>>> correct term is
>> >>>>> >> "liberal" or "progressive".
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr" >>>
>> >>>>> >>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>> >>>>> >>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>>>> >>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
>> >>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>> RyanO,
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>> I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long overdue
>> >>>>> >>>> stand >>>> for
>> >>>>> >> us blind conservatives.  Let me be completely frank here, at
>> >>>>> >> perhaps >> some
>> >>>>> >> risk to myself.  For much too long now, I have feared that 
>> >>>>> >> perhaps
>> >>>>> >> the
>> >>>>> >> federation was leaning rather too far over to the left.  But
>> >>>>> why?  It's the
>> >>>>> >> entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly.  We 
>> >>>>> >> poor
>> >>>>> >>  >> blind
>> >>>>> >> think we can't live without it.  But, the sad truth is, that for
>> >>>>> many of us,
>> >>>>> >> that think is a physical reality.  That is the reason why more 
>> >>>>> >> of
>> >>>>> >> us >> don't
>> >>>>> >> have jobs.  We get punished for trying to start to go to work. 
>> >>>>> >> When
>> >>>>> >> we >> do,
>> >>>>> >> we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other 
>> >>>>> >> hand,
>> >>>>> >> we >> make
>> >>>>> >> too much to receive any help from the socialist security system. 
>> >>>>> >>  >>
>> >>>>> >> What,
>> >>>>> >> there fore, is the sad result?  The sad result is that too many
>> >>>>> >> blind
>> >>>>> >> individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think that
>> >>>>> government will
>> >>>>> >> "look after us".  IF you just stop and consider for a moment 
>> >>>>> >> what
>> >>>>> >> that
>> >>>>> >> really means, you'll see that i
>> >>>>> >>>> t goes directly against the grain of true federationism.  It 
>> >>>>> >>>>  >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>> personally
>> >>>>> >> hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by 
>> >>>>> >> the
>> >>>>> >> Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling wanted 
>> >>>>> >> to
>> >>>>> >> dismantle blind rehab.  Frankly, I felt then and feel still that 
>> >>>>> >> my
>> >>>>> >>  >> fellow
>> >>>>> >> conservatives were completely wrong on that score.  They seem to
>> >>>>> >> hate
>> >>>>> >> political correctness; that is, until it comes to the
>> >>>>> blind.  That turns my
>> >>>>> >> stomach!!!!  It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the
>> >>>>> federation fail to
>> >>>>> >> reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable 
>> >>>>> >> being
>> >>>>> >> in >> bed
>> >>>>> >> with the socialist left.  To speak quite candidly, I was 
>> >>>>> >> sincerely
>> >>>>> >>  >> hoping
>> >>>>> >> that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital 
>> >>>>> >> talking
>> >>>>> >>  >> book
>> >>>>> >> program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to
>> >>>>> ride the back
>> >>>>> >> of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems,
>> >>>>> >> however, >> that
>> >>>>> >> this is not so.  Now look, just so I am not misunderstood here,
>> >>>>> I personally
>> >>>>> >> couldn't care whether any individu
>> >>>>> >>>> al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a 
>> >>>>> >>>> socialist,
>> >>>>> >>>> an
>> >>>>> >> extreme right wing person or what ever.  What I do care about is
>> >>>>> >> the >> fact
>> >>>>> >> that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're going 
>> >>>>> >> to
>> >>>>> >> have >> to
>> >>>>> >> figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be looking 
>> >>>>> >> for
>> >>>>> >>  >> that
>> >>>>> >> check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're 
>> >>>>> >> being
>> >>>>> >>  >> looked
>> >>>>> >> after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be
>> >>>>> enough.  What I
>> >>>>> >> look forward to in this debate is not accusation after 
>> >>>>> >> accusation,
>> >>>>> >> but
>> >>>>> >> rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid ourselves of the
>> >>>>> entitlement
>> >>>>> >> mentality and move in to something much better for us.
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>> Sincerely,
>> >>>>> >>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>> E-Mail:
>> >>>>> >>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>> >>>>> >>>> Skype:
>> >>>>> >>>> barefootedray
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
>> >>>>> >> <dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following:
>> >>>>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>> Dave
>> >>>>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>> In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were asked to
>> >>>>> >>>>> reach >>>>> out
>> >>>>> >> to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a representative
>> >>>>> to come speak
>> >>>>> >> at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of disability
>> >>>>> issues. We
>> >>>>> >> already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one 
>> >>>>> >> of
>> >>>>> >> our
>> >>>>> >> members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After several days 
>> >>>>> >> of
>> >>>>> >>  >> phone
>> >>>>> >> tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
>> >>>>> >> representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was 
>> >>>>> >> because,
>> >>>>> >>  >> "Obama
>> >>>>> >> was just too far ahead on disability issues."
>> >>>>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>> I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry and
>> >>>>> hurt. We tried
>> >>>>> >> to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we
>> >>>>> didn't matter.
>> >>>>> >> To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit 
>> >>>>> >> being
>> >>>>> >> a
>> >>>>> >> conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The second
>> >>>>> option was to
>> >>>>> >> get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all
>> >>>>> >> levels.
>> >>>>> >> Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
>> >>>>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>> To that end, I have created a mailing list called, Brush 
>> >>>>> >>>>> Fires.
>> >>>>> >>>>> It >>>>> is
>> >>>>> >> primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network 
>> >>>>> >> of
>> >>>>> >> communication and information. Let me stress that everyone is
>> >>>>> >> welcome >> on
>> >>>>> >> this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In the
>> >>>>> >> spirit >> of
>> >>>>> >> the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion
>> >>>>> fosters a more
>> >>>>> >> vibrant society for all of its members.
>> >>>>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>> Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big enough, I
>> >>>>> >>>>> plan >>>>> to
>> >>>>> >> turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information,
>> >>>>> >> please >> Email
>> >>>>> >> me at
>> >>>>> >>>>> ryano218 at comcast.net
>> >>>>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for your time and attention.
>> >>>>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>> RyanO
>
>
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