[nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives

T. Joseph Carter carter.tjoseph at gmail.com
Tue Apr 27 22:00:54 UTC 2010 

When you've got prominent leaders in the NFB calling people some of 
the names that some of the people involved in this discussion have 
been called for holding a particular belief that is part of their 
faith teachings, I'd say it's pretty relevant.

Thankfully, most of that has happened off-list.

Joseph


On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 11:18:48PM -0700, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote:
>  Why are religious beliefs relevant to the purpose of this list? I 
>for one am not subscribed to deal with religious issues here as I 
>believe that this is a personal choice and should be dealt with 
>personally.
>Chuck
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Baughn" 
><sarahb006 at comcast.net>
>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 10:26 AM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>
>
>>Actually, they are.  The liberal mentality of the left (liberals) 
>>directly contradict the teachings of the Church, regardless of 
>>whether or not most catholics agree with the liberal mentality.
>>Sarah
>>If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this 
>>mountain: "Remove hence to yonder place.", and it shall remove, and 
>>nothing shall be impossible unto you.
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" 
>><jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 3:09 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>
>>
>>>Sarah, of course opinions are either right or wrong. How can it 
>>>be otherwise? If Ray says we'd be better off without SSI and I 
>>>say we wouldn't, then one of us has to be wrong.
>>>
>>>What you mean is that neither of us can prove the other wrong. 
>>>Well, actually, I donn't think even that is correct. But even if 
>>>it is, that doesn't mean that one of us isn't wrong.
>>>
>>>PS: You sound like you think liberal and Catholic are distinct 
>>>groups. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the majority of 
>>>Catholics would agree with me, not Ray.
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Baughn" 
>>><sarahb006 at comcast.net>
>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:58 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>
>>>
>>>>John, the terms right and wrong are subjective.  Everyone has a 
>>>>different version of what is right and what is wrong, 
>>>>especially when it comes to political and religious beliefs.  
>>>>Being a Catholic, I agree with all of what Ray is saying 
>>>>because he is saying these things from the perspective of a 
>>>>blind catholic, with the insight of the teachings of the 
>>>>Church. However, a liberal does not believe in these things, 
>>>>and so their version of what is right does not coincide with 
>>>>ours.  So you see, you are doing no better than he is when you 
>>>>call what others believe wrong.  You may think they're wrong, 
>>>>but I think those words can only be used when you're talking 
>>>>about proven facts that can not be denied.
>>>>Sarah
>>>>If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto 
>>>>this mountain: "Remove hence to yonder place.", and it shall 
>>>>remove, and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" 
>>>><jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>To: <info at michaelhingson.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing List" 
>>>><nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:04 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in 
>>>>>discussing liberal vs conservative issues in a rational 
>>>>>manner. People should occasionally take a step back and 
>>>>>examine their point of view. Far too many people make up 
>>>>>their minds and then start casting around for reasons to 
>>>>>believe what they've already decided.  That's a recipe for 
>>>>>disaster. That's how mistakes are made.
>>>>>
>>>>>I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm 
>>>>>thinking of calling it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost 
>>>>>everyone believes in freedom of speech. And most people even 
>>>>>understand why its so important. Its not just because we all 
>>>>>enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so important is 
>>>>>that it allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete 
>>>>>against each other in a society with free speech and most of 
>>>>>the time, the best idea wins. Its called the market place of 
>>>>>ideas.
>>>>>
>>>>>But very few people apply the concept of the market place of 
>>>>>ideas to their own opinions.  Its just not even something 
>>>>>that occurs to most people to do. Most people make up their 
>>>>>minds ahead of time and then start casting about for 
>>>>>information to support what they already believe. And that is 
>>>>>a recipe for wrongness.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you 
>>>>>believe, you will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It 
>>>>>even made me a better chess player. I was in a round-robin 
>>>>>chess tournament and lost almost all of my matches until I 
>>>>>started sitting back occasionally and trying to get a 
>>>>>realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What are my 
>>>>>opponent's strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any 
>>>>>advantages I might not see? Is he missing any vulnerabilities 
>>>>>he currently has? What's going on in my opponent's head? From 
>>>>>then on, I won almost every match. It was like magic.
>>>>>
>>>>>The real message in the chess tournament story is not the 
>>>>>importance of trying to look into your opponents mind. The 
>>>>>real insight there is how few people do it. Its not just that 
>>>>>a lot of people are crummy chess players. Its that it would 
>>>>>be so easy to be so much better.
>>>>>
>>>>>Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to 
>>>>>use it everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your 
>>>>>political opinions, take a step back occasionally and 
>>>>>consider whether they're working or not. Do they actually 
>>>>>make sense? Does history support or dispute my beliefs? Do I 
>>>>>believe what I believe because I want to or because of the 
>>>>>facts?  If more people did this, they'd be right a lot more 
>>>>>often and the world would be a better place.
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hingson" 
>>>>><info at michaelhingson.com>
>>>>>To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>>Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as 
>>>>>conservative and
>>>>>"right wing" are words.  The fact is that these words have been used to
>>>>>inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
>>>>>
>>>>>In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate 
>>>>>into anger and
>>>>>downright polarization on a scale we have never seen before.  
>>>>>I and others
>>>>>survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to see our
>>>>>potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our 
>>>>>resolve disintegrate
>>>>>along party lines.  Folks, it matters not our political 
>>>>>leanings. Knock off
>>>>>the words and find ways to come together.  Stop calling each 
>>>>>other names and
>>>>>recognize that we all have a job to do.  In the case of the 
>>>>>NFB it is to
>>>>>promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all 
>>>>>blind Americans
>>>>>should have.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Mike Hingson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>>>>>"Speaking with Vision"
>>>>>Michael Hingson, President
>>>>>(415) 827-4084
>>>>>info at michaelhingson.com
>>>>>www.michaelhingson.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>>>>http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>>>>[mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
>>>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>
>>>>>Just being honest.  That's all.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>E-Mail:
>>>>>rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>Skype:
>>>>>barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>>On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this 
>>>>>>rationally you refrain
>>>>>from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The 
>>>>>correct term is
>>>>>"liberal" or "progressive".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr" 
>>>>>><rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>RyanO,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long 
>>>>>>>overdue stand for
>>>>>us blind conservatives.  Let me be completely frank here, at 
>>>>>perhaps some
>>>>>risk to myself.  For much too long now, I have feared that perhaps the
>>>>>federation was leaning rather too far over to the left.  But 
>>>>>why?  It's the
>>>>>entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly.  
>>>>>We poor blind
>>>>>think we can't live without it.  But, the sad truth is, that 
>>>>>for many of us,
>>>>>that think is a physical reality.  That is the reason why 
>>>>>more of us don't
>>>>>have jobs.  We get punished for trying to start to go to 
>>>>>work. When we do,
>>>>>we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other 
>>>>>hand, we make
>>>>>too much to receive any help from the socialist security system.  What,
>>>>>there fore, is the sad result?  The sad result is that too many blind
>>>>>individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think that 
>>>>>government will
>>>>>"look after us".  IF you just stop and consider for a moment what that
>>>>>really means, you'll see that i
>>>>>>>t goes directly against the grain of true federationism.  
>>>>>>>It personally
>>>>>hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by the
>>>>>Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling wanted to
>>>>>dismantle blind rehab.  Frankly, I felt then and feel still 
>>>>>that my fellow
>>>>>conservatives were completely wrong on that score.  They seem to hate
>>>>>political correctness; that is, until it comes to the blind.  
>>>>>That turns my
>>>>>stomach!!!!  It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the 
>>>>>federation fail to
>>>>>reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable 
>>>>>being in bed
>>>>>with the socialist left.  To speak quite candidly, I was 
>>>>>sincerely hoping
>>>>>that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital talking book
>>>>>program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to 
>>>>>ride the back
>>>>>of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems, 
>>>>>however, that
>>>>>this is not so.  Now look, just so I am not misunderstood 
>>>>>here, I personally
>>>>>couldn't care whether any individu
>>>>>>>al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a socialist, an
>>>>>extreme right wing person or what ever.  What I do care about 
>>>>>is the fact
>>>>>that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're 
>>>>>going to have to
>>>>>figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be 
>>>>>looking for that
>>>>>check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're 
>>>>>being looked
>>>>>after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be 
>>>>>enough. What I
>>>>>look forward to in this debate is not accusation after accusation, but
>>>>>rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid ourselves of 
>>>>>the entitlement
>>>>>mentality and move in to something much better for us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>E-Mail:
>>>>>>>rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>Skype:
>>>>>>>barefootedray
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
>>>>><dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I have been asked to circulate the following:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Dave
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were 
>>>>>>>>asked to reach out
>>>>>to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a 
>>>>>representative to come speak
>>>>>at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of 
>>>>>disability issues. We
>>>>>already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one of our
>>>>>members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After several 
>>>>>days of phone
>>>>>tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
>>>>>representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was 
>>>>>because, "Obama
>>>>>was just too far ahead on disability issues."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry 
>>>>>>>>and hurt. We tried
>>>>>to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we 
>>>>>didn't matter.
>>>>>To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit being a
>>>>>conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The second 
>>>>>option was to
>>>>>get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all levels.
>>>>>Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>To that end, I have created a mailing list called, 
>>>>>>>>Brush Fires. It is
>>>>>primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network of
>>>>>communication and information. Let me stress that everyone is 
>>>>>welcome on
>>>>>this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In 
>>>>>the spirit of
>>>>>the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion 
>>>>>fosters a more
>>>>>vibrant society for all of its members.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big 
>>>>>>>>enough, I plan to
>>>>>turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information, 
>>>>>please Email
>>>>>me at
>>>>>>>>ryano218 at comcast.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Thank you for your time and attention.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>RyanO
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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