[nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives

Sarah Baughn sarahb006 at comcast.net
Wed Apr 28 19:56:11 UTC 2010 

Joseph, thank you.
Sarah
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "T. Joseph Carter" <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives


> When you've got prominent leaders in the NFB calling people some of the 
> names that some of the people involved in this discussion have been called 
> for holding a particular belief that is part of their faith teachings, I'd 
> say it's pretty relevant.
>
> Thankfully, most of that has happened off-list.
>
> Joseph
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 11:18:48PM -0700, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote:
>>  Why are religious beliefs relevant to the purpose of this list? I for 
>> one am not subscribed to deal with religious issues here as I believe 
>> that this is a personal choice and should be dealt with personally.
>>Chuck
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Baughn" <sarahb006 at comcast.net>
>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 10:26 AM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>
>>
>>>Actually, they are.  The liberal mentality of the left (liberals) 
>>>directly contradict the teachings of the Church, regardless of whether or 
>>>not most catholics agree with the liberal mentality.
>>>Sarah
>>>If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this 
>>>mountain: "Remove hence to yonder place.", and it shall remove, and 
>>>nothing shall be impossible unto you.
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 3:09 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>
>>>
>>>>Sarah, of course opinions are either right or wrong. How can it be 
>>>>otherwise? If Ray says we'd be better off without SSI and I say we 
>>>>wouldn't, then one of us has to be wrong.
>>>>
>>>>What you mean is that neither of us can prove the other wrong. Well, 
>>>>actually, I donn't think even that is correct. But even if it is, that 
>>>>doesn't mean that one of us isn't wrong.
>>>>
>>>>PS: You sound like you think liberal and Catholic are distinct groups. 
>>>>In fact, I would be willing to bet that the majority of Catholics would 
>>>>agree with me, not Ray.
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Baughn" 
>>>><sarahb006 at comcast.net>
>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:58 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>John, the terms right and wrong are subjective.  Everyone has a 
>>>>>different version of what is right and what is wrong, especially when 
>>>>>it comes to political and religious beliefs.  Being a Catholic, I agree 
>>>>>with all of what Ray is saying because he is saying these things from 
>>>>>the perspective of a blind catholic, with the insight of the teachings 
>>>>>of the Church. However, a liberal does not believe in these things, and 
>>>>>so their version of what is right does not coincide with ours.  So you 
>>>>>see, you are doing no better than he is when you call what others 
>>>>>believe wrong.  You may think they're wrong, but I think those words 
>>>>>can only be used when you're talking about proven facts that can not be 
>>>>>denied.
>>>>>Sarah
>>>>>If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this 
>>>>>mountain: "Remove hence to yonder place.", and it shall remove, and 
>>>>>nothing shall be impossible unto you.
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>>To: <info at michaelhingson.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing List" 
>>>>><nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:04 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in discussing 
>>>>>>liberal vs conservative issues in a rational manner. People should 
>>>>>>occasionally take a step back and examine their point of view. Far too 
>>>>>>many people make up their minds and then start casting around for 
>>>>>>reasons to believe what they've already decided.  That's a recipe for 
>>>>>>disaster. That's how mistakes are made.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm thinking of 
>>>>>>calling it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in freedom 
>>>>>>of speech. And most people even understand why its so important. Its 
>>>>>>not just because we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is 
>>>>>>so important is that it allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can 
>>>>>>compete against each other in a society with free speech and most of 
>>>>>>the time, the best idea wins. Its called the market place of ideas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But very few people apply the concept of the market place of ideas to 
>>>>>>their own opinions.  Its just not even something that occurs to most 
>>>>>>people to do. Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then 
>>>>>>start casting about for information to support what they already 
>>>>>>believe. And that is a recipe for wrongness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you believe, 
>>>>>>you will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made me a 
>>>>>>better chess player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and lost 
>>>>>>almost all of my matches until I started sitting back occasionally and 
>>>>>>trying to get a realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What 
>>>>>>are my opponent's strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages 
>>>>>>I might not see? Is he missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? 
>>>>>>What's going on in my opponent's head? From then on, I won almost 
>>>>>>every match. It was like magic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The real message in the chess tournament story is not the importance 
>>>>>>of trying to look into your opponents mind. The real insight there is 
>>>>>>how few people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are crummy 
>>>>>>chess players. Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use it 
>>>>>>everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your political 
>>>>>>opinions, take a step back occasionally and consider whether they're 
>>>>>>working or not. Do they actually make sense? Does history support or 
>>>>>>dispute my beliefs? Do I believe what I believe because I want to or 
>>>>>>because of the facts?  If more people did this, they'd be right a lot 
>>>>>>more often and the world would be a better place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hingson" 
>>>>>><info at michaelhingson.com>
>>>>>>To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as conservative 
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>"right wing" are words.  The fact is that these words have been used 
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate into anger 
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>downright polarization on a scale we have never seen before.  I and 
>>>>>>others
>>>>>>survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to see our
>>>>>>potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our resolve 
>>>>>>disintegrate
>>>>>>along party lines.  Folks, it matters not our political leanings. 
>>>>>>Knock off
>>>>>>the words and find ways to come together.  Stop calling each other 
>>>>>>names and
>>>>>>recognize that we all have a job to do.  In the case of the NFB it is 
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all blind 
>>>>>>Americans
>>>>>>should have.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Mike Hingson
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>>>>>>"Speaking with Vision"
>>>>>>Michael Hingson, President
>>>>>>(415) 827-4084
>>>>>>info at michaelhingson.com
>>>>>>www.michaelhingson.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>>>>>http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>>>>On
>>>>>>Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
>>>>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Just being honest.  That's all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>E-Mail:
>>>>>>rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>Skype:
>>>>>>barefootedray
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this rationally you 
>>>>>>>refrain
>>>>>>from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The correct 
>>>>>>term is
>>>>>>"liberal" or "progressive".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr" 
>>>>>>><rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>RyanO,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long overdue stand 
>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>us blind conservatives.  Let me be completely frank here, at perhaps 
>>>>>>some
>>>>>>risk to myself.  For much too long now, I have feared that perhaps the
>>>>>>federation was leaning rather too far over to the left.  But why? 
>>>>>>It's the
>>>>>>entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly.  We poor 
>>>>>>blind
>>>>>>think we can't live without it.  But, the sad truth is, that for many 
>>>>>>of us,
>>>>>>that think is a physical reality.  That is the reason why more of us 
>>>>>>don't
>>>>>>have jobs.  We get punished for trying to start to go to work. When we 
>>>>>>do,
>>>>>>we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other hand, we 
>>>>>>make
>>>>>>too much to receive any help from the socialist security system. 
>>>>>>What,
>>>>>>there fore, is the sad result?  The sad result is that too many blind
>>>>>>individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think that government 
>>>>>>will
>>>>>>"look after us".  IF you just stop and consider for a moment what that
>>>>>>really means, you'll see that i
>>>>>>>>t goes directly against the grain of true federationism.  It 
>>>>>>>>personally
>>>>>>hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by the
>>>>>>Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling wanted to
>>>>>>dismantle blind rehab.  Frankly, I felt then and feel still that my 
>>>>>>fellow
>>>>>>conservatives were completely wrong on that score.  They seem to hate
>>>>>>political correctness; that is, until it comes to the blind.  That 
>>>>>>turns my
>>>>>>stomach!!!!  It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the federation 
>>>>>>fail to
>>>>>>reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable being in 
>>>>>>bed
>>>>>>with the socialist left.  To speak quite candidly, I was sincerely 
>>>>>>hoping
>>>>>>that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital talking 
>>>>>>book
>>>>>>program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to ride the 
>>>>>>back
>>>>>>of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems, however, 
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>this is not so.  Now look, just so I am not misunderstood here, I 
>>>>>>personally
>>>>>>couldn't care whether any individu
>>>>>>>>al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a socialist, an
>>>>>>extreme right wing person or what ever.  What I do care about is the 
>>>>>>fact
>>>>>>that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're going to have 
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be looking for 
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're being 
>>>>>>looked
>>>>>>after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be enough. 
>>>>>>What I
>>>>>>look forward to in this debate is not accusation after accusation, but
>>>>>>rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid ourselves of the 
>>>>>>entitlement
>>>>>>mentality and move in to something much better for us.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>E-Mail:
>>>>>>>>rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>>Skype:
>>>>>>>>barefootedray
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
>>>>>><dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I have been asked to circulate the following:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Dave
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were asked to reach 
>>>>>>>>>out
>>>>>>to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a representative to come 
>>>>>>speak
>>>>>>at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of disability 
>>>>>>issues. We
>>>>>>already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one of our
>>>>>>members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After several days of 
>>>>>>phone
>>>>>>tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
>>>>>>representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was because, 
>>>>>>"Obama
>>>>>>was just too far ahead on disability issues."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry and hurt. We 
>>>>>>>>>tried
>>>>>>to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we didn't 
>>>>>>matter.
>>>>>>To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit being a
>>>>>>conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The second option 
>>>>>>was to
>>>>>>get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all levels.
>>>>>>Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>To that end, I have created a mailing list called, Brush Fires. It 
>>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network of
>>>>>>communication and information. Let me stress that everyone is welcome 
>>>>>>on
>>>>>>this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In the spirit 
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion fosters a 
>>>>>>more
>>>>>>vibrant society for all of its members.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big enough, I plan 
>>>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information, please 
>>>>>>Email
>>>>>>me at
>>>>>>>>>ryano218 at comcast.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Thank you for your time and attention.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>RyanO
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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