[nfb-talk] Enough already!
Michael D. Barber
michael.nfbi at gmail.com
Sat Dec 11 19:09:01 UTC 2010
Mr. Moderator: I hope we can end this tiresome thread as it has
deteriorated into nothing but personal attacks. As the subject line says,
"enough already."
Michael Barber
-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Gloria Whipple
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 12:19 PM
To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!
You are full of it.
Gloria Whipple
Corresponding Secretary
Inland Empire chapter
nfb of WA
cell number: 509-475-4993
-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John Heim
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 10:06 AM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!
Joseph, I never said that blind people can't be expected to maintain their
own homes. That is a complete distortion of my comments. I suppose its
hopeless to try to reason with you but what I said was that blind people
cannot be expected to replace their own toilets and sinks. I doubt that most
blind people do their own plumbing. I doubt that even most sighted people do
those kind of repairs themselves.
That seems like a perfectly reasonable point of view to me. I can't see why
you're so angry about it. And I have to figure that most of the reasonable
members of this list are as puzzled as I am.
On Dec 10, 2010, at 7:26 PM, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
> Ray,
>
> Probably I should've continued to do so, as originally was my intent,
> for that very reason. Yet I suspect there will be no change, lest it
> come in the form of removing the "troublemaker" from the list. I
> suspect we both know who that's going to mean.
>
> The tyranny of the offended minority, demanding the right to be not
> offended, while at the same time being profoundly offensive.
>
> Frankly, the thing that finally did it for me was the comment about
> how blind people cannot really be expected to manage their own basic
> home maintenance. Yes, actually, they can! We hold sighted people
> responsible for maintaining safe and sanitary living conditions, even
> if they cannot do the repairs themselves!
>
> Yet this entitled little whiner thinks a couple of people deserve a
> pass because they're blind? And how dare we, the National Federation
> of the Blind, argue otherwise? What greater offense can one give to
> the membership of an NFB listserv?
>
> He deserves to be flamed for such statements, and if our dear
> moderator would stop protecting him from the anger of those he has
> offended again and again, he surely would be. Either he'd learn to
> cope, learn to stop going out of his way to anger pretty much the
> entire Federation, or he'd go away. Any of the above is reasonable as
> far as I'm concerned.
>
> Y'know, I never really had a problem with Joe Harcz. The man is
> willfully offensive to any federationist, and he knows it. And he can
> sure dish it out. But he can take it as well as he can dish it out.
> I've gone a few rounds with him. I've been forced to accept a couple
> of his points as valid, and he's been forced to accept a couple of
> mine.
>
> Now, I don't regret that he was removed from the NFB lists for the
> good of everyone, but truly I'd rather have him to deal with, because
> he's not going to go crying to the moderator every time someone hurts
> his feelings. And to my knowledge, nobody was ever threatened with
> removal from the list for telling Joe Harcz where to stick it.
>
> Joseph
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 04:56:07PM -0600, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>> Josh, I reckon if we could avoid naming names, we might make more
>> progress here. This is not a thread which, I think, lends itself to
>> that. I'm sure Joseph and I would have named names if we felt it
>> necessary. That's why I have not and will not do so now.
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>
>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>
>> Skype Name:
>> barefootedray
>>
>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 4:45 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, My teacher in High School did show me different ways to fold my
>>> money, and that's what I do. You and I can discuss this in another
>>> thread. I have something to say on the topic of this thread as well.
>>> I've noticed how us conservatives on this thread are being
>>> attacked by
>>> the liberals here. Gloria, you, Ms. Judy, and others have been
>>> attacked because we disagreed with the little implanted chips
>>> given to
>>> visually impaired people. That's just one of those instances you
>>> were
>>> referring to. Blessings, Joshua
>>>
>>> On 12/9/10, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>>>> Well, Josh, my answer to you would not be the Ibill; instead,
>>>> I'd advise
>>>> you to just save your money and fold it different ways. Myself,
>>>> I'd love to
>>>> have the Ibill.
>>>>
>>>> Back to the topic though.
>>>>
>>>> I felt a need to come on here and publically support Joseph
>>>> because, as
>>>> usual, I can't stand to see a friend stand alone on an issue;
>>>> especially
>>>> when I feel he or she is right.
>>>>
>>>> This is one such case.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>
>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>>
>>>> Skype Name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 4:28 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ray, I agree with you wholeheartedly, although, I disagree with
>>>>> the
>>>>> NFB's stance on accessible currency for the blind. The argument
>>>>> I get
>>>>> from most NFB members is, "well, get the I-Bill," but they don't
>>>>> understand is that it's too expensive for some of us, like
>>>>> myself who
>>>>> are going to college, and having to pay for that. $99 for a little
>>>>> gadget is too much. If they'll lower the price at the next
>>>>> convention
>>>>> that I'll be able to attend, (2012 in Dallas,) I'll buy the I-
>>>>> Bill.
>>>>> But until then, accessible currency is the way to go, (just my
>>>>> humble
>>>>> oppinion.) Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/9/10, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>> David, I must agree with Joseph on this point. I will speak
>>>>>> frankly
>>>>>> here.
>>>>>> Why do you tolerate vicious attacks on not only the NFB but on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> members
>>>>>> of this list who hold with that way of thinking, not just
>>>>>> because some
>>>>>> federation leader says so, but because of their own personal
>>>>>> experience?
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> understand wanting to tolerate healthy and open and honest
>>>>>> discussion;
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> David, there are some individuals, (I'm not going to name names
>>>>>> because I
>>>>>> believe you know who they are if you have been truly reading
>>>>>> the posts
>>>>>> here), who have violently attacked not only me but others who
>>>>>> think as I
>>>>>> do.
>>>>>> I have had enough; and, so, I dare say, have those who hold
>>>>>> with me. I'm
>>>>>> not giving out the names of these attackers because I don't
>>>>>> feel the need
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> sink this list in to that mire. If a person honestly does not
>>>>>> know the
>>>>>> answer to the reason why an independent blind person says or
>>>>>> thinks or
>>>>>> does
>>>>>> something, of course, it goes without saying that they should
>>>>>> feel more
>>>>>> than free to ask. But Dave, I think we both know that this is
>>>>>> not what
>>>>>> Joseph and I are talking about here. Honest ignorance is one
>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>> Attacks are another. I will not claim to be totally guiltless
>>>>>> myself in
>>>>>> this regard, and so, indeed, I may not be. However, this has
>>>>>> truly gone
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> quite long enough. I'm writing this as an open response so
>>>>>> that everyone
>>>>>> may know just exactly how I feel. Mind you, I can't speak for
>>>>>> others
>>>>>> here
>>>>>> directly, (only they can and must), but, I think I know some
>>>>>> others here
>>>>>> well enough to be able to make a fairly good guess at how they
>>>>>> feel.
>>>>>> This
>>>>>> is supposed to be a list where ideas can be freely shared, and,
>>>>>> sans the
>>>>>> personal attacks, (which have become more and more of late), it
>>>>>> is. But,
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> too have noticed that those who defend the NFB positions on
>>>>>> certain
>>>>>> matters
>>>>>> are threatened and the attackers defended. Why is this?
>>>>>> Surely, you
>>>>>> must
>>>>>> know what I'm talking about? I believe you do. Tolerance is, in
>>>>>> general,
>>>>>> good, but, there comes a time when enough is enough. It would
>>>>>> appear
>>>>>> that,
>>>>>> (at least with respect to Joseph and myself), our patience has
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> reached
>>>>>> it's end.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 2:05 PM, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have you noticed the trend of discussions on this list over
>>>>>>> the past
>>>>>>> couple of years or so? I have, and I've double-checked the
>>>>>>> archives to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> sure I wasn't reading something into it. The pattern is that
>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>> discussion seems to involve one group of people arguing for
>>>>>>> the ability
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the blind, for the NFB, its policies, and its mission. The
>>>>>>> other side
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the discussion is generally one person.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The pattern of the discussion is that the individual says
>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>> incendiary against one of the above, something I have a hard
>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>> accepting is unintentional at this point. The group reacts,
>>>>>>> some with
>>>>>>> distaste, some with disagreement, and some with anger. This
>>>>>>> last group
>>>>>>> has taken the bait, if you will.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is where you come in, because inevitably the individual
>>>>>>> insists
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> he is "offended" and "baselessly attacked" for his views. You
>>>>>>> defend
>>>>>>> him,
>>>>>>> going so far as to threaten to ban longtime regulars and well-
>>>>>>> respected
>>>>>>> federationists. The individual takes this as a sign that he
>>>>>>> may stand
>>>>>>> behind you, and continue to insult not only us few here, but
>>>>>>> everything
>>>>>>> this organization stands for.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fact that there is not a single person on this list that
>>>>>>> does not
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> of whom I speak is evidence in and of itself. It's really got
>>>>>>> to stop.
>>>>>>> Those who would not be flamed should not make a habit of
>>>>>>> setting fires.
>>>>>>> Having set a few myself over the years, it comes with the
>>>>>>> territory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 08, 2010 at 10:19:24PM -0600, David Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>>> This is a personal attack and is totally unacceptable. You can
>>>>>>>> disagree
>>>>>>>> with someone -- but please stick to facts, not speculation etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David Andrews, Moderator
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At 03:09 PM 12/6/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I agree Gloria. He is a very shallow person, and I don't
>>>>>>>>> care of his
>>>>>>>>> $250,000 house is paid off or not. He could rip off Bernie
>>>>>>>>> Madoff,
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> biggest cheat in the world, and he wouldn't impress me..smile.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Connie Canode
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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