[nfb-talk] Enough already!

Wm. Ritchhart william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net
Sat Dec 11 19:53:11 UTC 2010


Gloria,  

I'll start with stating that I am not the moderator.  I will follow up with
your response is exactly the sort of response that David was talking about
when he told us to stop personal attacks.  

Do you not think that saying nothing would have been a more productive
course than your response below?  By your email signature I see you are a
chapter Secretary.  I believe that as a leader you should use some thought
in your replies and not hit the send key so quickly.  

Please read your post to yourself again and ask yourself if that is how you
really want people to view you.  I suspect it is not.

Thanks, William


-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Gloria Whipple
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 1:19 PM
To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!

You are full of it.


Gloria Whipple
Corresponding Secretary
Inland Empire chapter
nfb of WA

cell number: 509-475-4993

-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John Heim
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 10:06 AM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!

Joseph,  I never said that blind people can't be expected to maintain  
their own homes. That is a complete distortion of my comments. I  
suppose its hopeless to try to reason with you but what I said was  
that blind people cannot be expected to replace their own toilets and  
sinks. I doubt that most blind people do their own plumbing. I doubt  
that even most sighted people do those kind of repairs themselves.


That seems like a perfectly reasonable point of view to me. I can't  
see why you're so angry about it. And I have to figure that most of  
the reasonable members of this list are as puzzled as I am.



On Dec 10, 2010, at 7:26 PM, T. Joseph Carter wrote:

> Ray,
>
> Probably I should've continued to do so, as originally was my  
> intent, for that very reason.  Yet I suspect there will be no  
> change, lest it come in the form of removing the "troublemaker" from  
> the list.  I suspect we both know who that's going to mean.
>
> The tyranny of the offended minority, demanding the right to be not  
> offended, while at the same time being profoundly offensive.
>
> Frankly, the thing that finally did it for me was the comment about  
> how blind people cannot really be expected to manage their own basic  
> home maintenance.  Yes, actually, they can!  We hold sighted people  
> responsible for maintaining safe and sanitary living conditions,  
> even if they cannot do the repairs themselves!
>
> Yet this entitled little whiner thinks a couple of people deserve a  
> pass because they're blind?  And how dare we, the National  
> Federation of the Blind, argue otherwise?  What greater offense can  
> one give to the membership of an NFB listserv?
>
> He deserves to be flamed for such statements, and if our dear  
> moderator would stop protecting him from the anger of those he has  
> offended again and again, he surely would be.  Either he'd learn to  
> cope, learn to stop going out of his way to anger pretty much the  
> entire Federation, or he'd go away.  Any of the above is reasonable  
> as far as I'm concerned.
>
> Y'know, I never really had a problem with Joe Harcz.  The man is  
> willfully offensive to any federationist, and he knows it.  And he  
> can sure dish it out.  But he can take it as well as he can dish it  
> out.  I've gone a few rounds with him.  I've been forced to accept a  
> couple of his points as valid, and he's been forced to accept a  
> couple of mine.
>
> Now, I don't regret that he was removed from the NFB lists for the  
> good of everyone, but truly I'd rather have him to deal with,  
> because he's not going to go crying to the moderator every time  
> someone hurts his feelings.  And to my knowledge, nobody was ever  
> threatened with removal from the list for telling Joe Harcz where to  
> stick it.
>
> Joseph
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 04:56:07PM -0600, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>> Josh, I reckon if we could avoid naming names, we might make more  
>> progress here.  This is not a thread which, I think, lends itself  
>> to that.  I'm sure Joseph and I would have named names if we felt  
>> it necessary.  That's why I have not and will not do so now.
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>
>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>
>> Skype Name:
>> barefootedray
>>
>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 4:45 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, My teacher in High School did show me different ways to fold my
>>> money, and that's what I do. You and I can discuss this in another
>>> thread. I have something to say on the topic of this thread as well.
>>> I've noticed how us conservatives on this thread are being  
>>> attacked by
>>> the liberals here. Gloria, you, Ms. Judy, and others have been
>>> attacked because we disagreed with the little implanted chips  
>>> given to
>>> visually impaired people. That's just one of those instances you  
>>> were
>>> referring to. Blessings, Joshua
>>>
>>> On 12/9/10, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>>>> Well, Josh, my answer to you would not be the  Ibill; instead,  
>>>> I'd advise
>>>> you to just save your money and fold it different ways.  Myself,  
>>>> I'd love to
>>>> have the Ibill.
>>>>
>>>> Back to the topic though.
>>>>
>>>> I felt a need to come on here and publically support Joseph  
>>>> because, as
>>>> usual, I can't stand to see a friend stand alone on an issue;  
>>>> especially
>>>> when I feel he or she is right.
>>>>
>>>> This is one such case.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>
>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>>
>>>> Skype Name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 4:28 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ray, I agree with you wholeheartedly, although, I disagree with  
>>>>> the
>>>>> NFB's stance on accessible currency for the blind. The argument  
>>>>> I get
>>>>> from most NFB members is, "well, get the I-Bill," but they don't
>>>>> understand is that it's too expensive for some of us, like  
>>>>> myself who
>>>>> are going to college, and having to pay for that. $99 for a little
>>>>> gadget is too much. If they'll lower the price at the next  
>>>>> convention
>>>>> that I'll be able to attend, (2012 in Dallas,) I'll buy the I- 
>>>>> Bill.
>>>>> But until then, accessible currency is the way to go, (just my  
>>>>> humble
>>>>> oppinion.) Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/9/10, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>> David, I must agree with Joseph on this point.  I will speak  
>>>>>> frankly
>>>>>> here.
>>>>>> Why do you tolerate vicious attacks on not only the NFB but on  
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> members
>>>>>> of this list who hold with that way of thinking, not just  
>>>>>> because some
>>>>>> federation leader says so, but because of their own personal  
>>>>>> experience?
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> understand wanting to tolerate healthy and open and honest  
>>>>>> discussion;
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> David, there are some individuals, (I'm not going to name names  
>>>>>> because I
>>>>>> believe you know who they are if you have been truly reading  
>>>>>> the posts
>>>>>> here), who have violently attacked not only me but others who  
>>>>>> think as I
>>>>>> do.
>>>>>> I have had enough; and, so, I dare say, have those who hold  
>>>>>> with me.  I'm
>>>>>> not giving out the names of these attackers because I don't  
>>>>>> feel the need
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> sink this list in to that mire.  If a person honestly does not  
>>>>>> know the
>>>>>> answer to the reason why an independent blind person says or  
>>>>>> thinks or
>>>>>> does
>>>>>> something, of course, it goes without  saying that they should  
>>>>>> feel more
>>>>>> than free to ask.  But Dave, I think we both know that this is  
>>>>>> not what
>>>>>> Joseph and I are talking about here.  Honest ignorance is one  
>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>> Attacks are another.  I will not claim to be totally guiltless  
>>>>>> myself in
>>>>>> this regard, and so, indeed, I may not be.  However, this has  
>>>>>> truly gone
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> quite long enough.  I'm writing this as an open response so  
>>>>>> that everyone
>>>>>> may know just exactly how I feel.  Mind you, I can't speak for  
>>>>>> others
>>>>>> here
>>>>>> directly, (only they can and must), but, I think I know some  
>>>>>> others here
>>>>>> well enough to be able to make a fairly good guess at how they  
>>>>>> feel.
>>>>>> This
>>>>>> is supposed to be a list where ideas can be freely shared, and,  
>>>>>> sans the
>>>>>> personal attacks, (which have become more and more of late), it  
>>>>>> is.  But,
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> too have noticed that those who defend the NFB positions on  
>>>>>> certain
>>>>>> matters
>>>>>> are threatened and the attackers defended.  Why is this?   
>>>>>> Surely, you
>>>>>> must
>>>>>> know what I'm talking about?  I believe you do.  Tolerance is, in
>>>>>> general,
>>>>>> good, but, there comes a time when enough is enough.  It would  
>>>>>> appear
>>>>>> that,
>>>>>> (at least with respect to Joseph and myself), our patience has  
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> reached
>>>>>> it's end.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 2:05 PM, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have you noticed the trend of discussions on this list over  
>>>>>>> the past
>>>>>>> couple of years or so?  I have, and I've double-checked the  
>>>>>>> archives to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> sure I wasn't reading something into it.  The pattern is that  
>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>> discussion seems to involve one group of people arguing for  
>>>>>>> the ability
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the blind, for the NFB, its policies, and its mission.  The  
>>>>>>> other side
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the discussion is generally one person.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The pattern of the discussion is that the individual says  
>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>> incendiary against one of the above, something I have a hard  
>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>> accepting is unintentional at this point.  The group reacts,  
>>>>>>> some with
>>>>>>> distaste, some with disagreement, and some with anger.  This  
>>>>>>> last group
>>>>>>> has taken the bait, if you will.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is where you come in, because inevitably the individual  
>>>>>>> insists
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> he is "offended" and "baselessly attacked" for his views.  You  
>>>>>>> defend
>>>>>>> him,
>>>>>>> going so far as to threaten to ban longtime regulars and well- 
>>>>>>> respected
>>>>>>> federationists.  The individual takes this as a sign that he  
>>>>>>> may stand
>>>>>>> behind you, and continue to insult not only us few here, but  
>>>>>>> everything
>>>>>>> this organization stands for.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fact that there is not a single person on this list that  
>>>>>>> does not
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> of whom I speak is evidence in and of itself.  It's really got  
>>>>>>> to stop.
>>>>>>> Those who would not be flamed should not make a habit of  
>>>>>>> setting fires.
>>>>>>> Having set a few myself over the years, it comes with the  
>>>>>>> territory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 08, 2010 at 10:19:24PM -0600, David Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>>> This is a personal attack and is totally unacceptable.  You can
>>>>>>>> disagree
>>>>>>>> with someone -- but please stick to facts, not speculation etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David Andrews, Moderator
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At 03:09 PM 12/6/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I agree Gloria.  He is a very shallow person, and I don't  
>>>>>>>>> care of his
>>>>>>>>> $250,000 house is paid off or not.  He could rip off Bernie  
>>>>>>>>> Madoff,
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> biggest cheat in the world, and he wouldn't impress me..smile.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Connie Canode
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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