[nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Mon Jul 19 18:55:28 UTC 2010
and those are questions that I can't answer because we are dealing with
factors that take on a subjective or relative quality since we are dealing
with the human factor which is a variable in itself.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
> Right. And your musings below then lead to a number of further questions:
> (1) what level of competence should members of society routinely assume
> blind people have (I suspect we would receive different answers from
> different organizations of the blind)? (2) When and to what extent should
> society in general and NFB in particular encourage individual blind people
> to strive for increased competence beyond that which they already possess
> and when should we attempt to compensate these same individuals for any
> supposed lack of competence? (3) How do we distinguish between flexibility
> of training and/or expectations and knuckling under to our
> all-too-often-experience of having reduced expectations of ourselves and
> others by virtue of our/their blindness?
>
> No one ever said tackling any philosophy of living at the margins would be
> easy.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 1:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>
>
>>I think the point here is that we are living in the real world and not a
>>utopian world where all blind people will receive the proper training or
>>adapt to all levels of the so-called proper training. The question now
>>becomes whether "proper training" is the same for all blind people. and
>>what happens for whatever reason if the ability to attain the necessary
>>skills that define completion of proper training are not achieved for
>>whatever reason by all reasons. This proposed issue regarding proper
>>training is similar to the problems that exist as a result of reliance on
>>too much standardized testing for achievement for students in our schools
>>or reliance on such mandatory standards such as high school exit exams for
>>all students. The reality now becomes that since we are in the real world
>>which is not perfect there will degrees of attainment of the competence
>>referred to with the so-called proper training and the degree to which
>>blindness becomes merely a nuisance is related to the degree to which a
>>blind person accomplishes the so-called "proper training." As a result of
>>this we are now back to the current position that we deal with in the real
>>world that the degree that blindness is merely a nuisance is an individual
>>factor determined by many variables which I don't need to go in to here as
>>it doesn't take much imagination to consider what these variables are.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 8:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>
>>
>>> Ah! Actually, you bring up an exciting possibility that never occured to
>>> me.
>>>
>>> No, I can't honestly say that I've been arguing that the NFB philosophy
>>> should be modified. The trouble is that I've always believed that an
>>> advocacy group cannot be effective when its own philosophy is that the
>>> problem it is organized around is fairly minor. Why bother working for
>>> change when blindness is a mere nuiscance anyway?
>>>
>>> You're probably saying, "That's not waht the NFB philosophy means." And
>>> I think it should be clear that I know that especially after my
>>> dissertation about how similar the NFB philosophy is to Lombardi's. The
>>> problem, as I see it, is that it is impossible to avoid having the
>>> philosophy to morph into something that blames the victim. It
>>> inevitably will lead to a situation where its a sin to ask for an
>>> accomodation, any accomodation. The only solution I see is to get rid of
>>> the philosophy all together.
>>>
>>> Well, that's the only solution I saw until now. Actually, I'm really
>>> excited about the idea you bring up. Can the philosophy be tweaked to
>>> address the problems I have seen? I'll admit I'm very skeptical. But it
>>> sure is worth some thought and/or discussion.
>>>
>>> Actually, I'd consider it a major victory if someone, anyone, would
>>> acknowledge the problem itself. How can the NFB be effective as an
>>> advocacy group when its own philosophy is that with proper training,
>>> blindness can be reduced to a mere nuiscance? If I were President of the
>>> NFB (scary thought, I know), I could go on for days about how those 2
>>> ideas are not really contradictory. But as a practical matter, I just do
>>> not think they can work together. And you've got to admit that on the
>>> surface, they seem quite at odds.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:34 AM
>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Okay John, So, let me see if I understand you correctly. What some of
>>>> us have viewed as your attacks on the NFB philosophy are actually not
>>>> attacks at all; rather, they are attempts on your part to help the NFB
>>>> fulfill and perhaps even improve on its philosophy? I want you to
>>>> understand that I do not intend my question as an attack upon you; but,
>>>> instead, I truly want to see if this is where you are going. Because,
>>>> if so, I think we may have the beginnings of a rather forward thinking
>>>> discussion about a substantive way of moving forward that if we advance
>>>> it to the leadership of the NFB in exactly the right way, we might
>>>> perhaps gain ground not otherwise obtainable.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>
>>>> E-Mail:
>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>> Skype Name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:02 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm impressed with the number of swimmers on this list. Its a good
>>>>> sign, IMO. It says something about the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>
>>>>> I may have given the impression that I disapprove of the NFB
>>>>> philosophy but nothing could be further from the truth. Its very close
>>>>> to my personal philosophy of life which is borrowed from Vince
>>>>> Lombardi.
>>>>>
>>>>> A lot of people think Vince Lombardi was the mean old coach who would
>>>>> do anything to win. No, that was not what he was like at all. His
>>>>> players loved him and still gather to meet each year to honor him.
>>>>> What he believed was that life's greatest moments come when you meet a
>>>>> challenge and over come it. That's what life is about. That is what it
>>>>> is to be human. You've got to have the will to win, to be the best
>>>>> you can be. Strive for perfection, knowing you'll never obtain it but
>>>>> on the way there, you'll find three things. First, you'll do more than
>>>>> you ever thought you could. Second, you'll find the struggle itself
>>>>> can be fun. And third, , when you do succeed, it will be the greatest
>>>>> feeling you've ever had. So when I went blind, I decided I was going
>>>>> to be the best damn blind guy I could be. I learned braille, tried to
>>>>> learn to play the violin, got a guide dog, and got back into running
>>>>> and swimming.
>>>>>
>>>>> The beauty of Lombardi's philosophy is that whenever you run into
>>>>> adversity, you don't say, "Oh, woe is me. Life is so hard." Instead
>>>>> the response is , "Well, what are you going to do about it?" You don't
>>>>> seek out adversity but when it comes, embrace it. Take it on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to create controversy again but like the NFB philosophy, the
>>>>> problem with Vince Lombardi's philosophy is that it is easily morphed
>>>>> into a mentality of showing contempt for losers. You can't live
>>>>> Lombardi's philosophy and be satisfied -- well ever really since
>>>>> perfection is impossible to obtain. You can always get better. But not
>>>>> everybody has the same strengths and not everyone can win. And no one
>>>>> has any right to tell anyone else how to live their lives.
>>>>>
>>>>> anyway, I think you can see the simularity between Lombardi's
>>>>> philosophy of life and the NFB philosophy. I would say, though, that
>>>>> Lombardi's philosophy is a step beyond that of the NFB in that it
>>>>> gives you a sort of method for carrying it out. The idea of never
>>>>> settling for anything short of success is implied in the NFB
>>>>> philosophy but not spelled out. I think Lombardi's take on the NFB
>>>>> philosophy would have been that the most important thing in life for a
>>>>> blind person is striving to reduce blindness to a mere nuisance. You
>>>>> may never get there but the most important thing is to never be
>>>>> satisfied until it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Johnson"
>>>>> <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net>
>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:10 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it is just cool that you are swimming. I think the best I
>>>>>> would at
>>>>>> my skill level is circles! Good for you in wanting to be a
>>>>>> tri-athelete!
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:25 AM
>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you swim laps and if you have a way to stay on your side of the
>>>>>> lane, I'd
>>>>>> like to hear about it. I believe most lap pools have the swimmers
>>>>>> keep
>>>>>> right like on a road. You swim up the right side of the lane and on
>>>>>> the way
>>>>>> back you come down the other side. The best I've been able to do is
>>>>>> to swim
>>>>>> with my right arm flailing out so that i can touch the lane divider
>>>>>> on every
>>>>>> stroke. That doesn't really work very well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It isn't really very helpful to tell me my skills need to improve.
>>>>>> After
>>>>>> all, I already asked for tips on how to improve.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:14 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A lane for yourself alone? Why? Is it your swimming skills that
>>>>>>> vastly need improvement; or, perhaps your blindness skills?
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:04 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So you're a swimmer, huh? Do you ever have to share a lane? If so,
>>>>>>>> how do you do it? I have never managed to do that successfully.
>>>>>>>> Here
>>>>>>>> at the pool at the University of Wisconsin, I call ahead and they
>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>> a lane aside for me so I can have it to myself. Its only a minor
>>>>>>>> sacrifice because there are usually several lanes with only one
>>>>>>>> person in them. So when they reserve a lane for me, it only means
>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> other person has to share a lane.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Have you ever done any open water swimming? I would like to enter a
>>>>>>>> triathlon but I don't like swimming tethered to someone else. I
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> can't get comfortable doing that. It effects my breathing and I
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> can't swim normally.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wm. Ritchhart"
>>>>>>>> <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:04 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I really like the new digital talking book player. I do wish it
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> still smaller and lighter. With all my swimming gear, lunch,
>>>>>>>>> back-up cane and everything else I have in my gym bag; it is still
>>>>>>>>> too heavy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Steve Johnson
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 8:22 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John, I have not tried one myself yet, so this is good to know.
>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Steve
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 3:26 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Man, I just got one of those new digital book players from the
>>>>>>>>> National Library Service. You might wonder why a computer nerd
>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>> myself took so long to ask for one of those things. Well, I guess
>>>>>>>>> mostly the reason is that I have 2 tape players that I bought
>>>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>>>> plus the one from NLS. So now I have to use the player from the
>>>>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>>>>> all of the time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But holy cow, is this thing nice. I downloaded a book and put it
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> a USB thumb drive and was listening to a book amybe 3 minutes
>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>> getting started. And navigation within the book is very nice.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your tax dollars at work.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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