[nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals

Dewey Bradley dewey.bradley at att.net
Wed May 26 20:38:30 UTC 2010 

No one is telling you how to be, or what kind of blind guy you are to be.
And no one on this list are what you are calling super blind, we just do 
things for our selves, and not have everyone else do everything for us and 
hand out stuff.
Its called being independent.
You are why sighted people talk down to us and think that we are stupid and 
helpless.
That's why they think they they have to tell us when to cross the street.
I've seen the talking crosswalks, most of the time when they go off, traffic 
is still turning in front of you, but because they make all that noise you 
can't hear them.
If you listen to sighted people, you will get hit some time.
They just see a gap in traffic and start walking.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals


> Super Blind Guy is my term for the person the NFB wants you to be.  This 
> is the guy for whom blindness has become a mere nuisance.
>
> Its truely ironic that I am being criticized on this list for not being 
> Super Blind Guy. Earlier this month, I was thuroughly trashed on the acb-l 
> list for insisting that everyone should try to be Super Blind Guy. IMO, 
> that is the goal every blind person should set. But I don't think that 
> should be an official policy of the NFB because they have no right to tell 
> people how to be blind.
>
> Nobody has a right to tell anyone else how to deal with their disability. 
> I happen to agree that with proper training blindness can be reduced to a 
> mere nuisance. But I bristle at the NFB telling me that I should feel that 
> way. That's a personal value that nobody has a right to determine on my 
> behalf. I happen to agree with that value judgement but I would never tell 
> anyone that they have to share my values. I think they should share them 
> but that decision *must* be left up to the individual.
>
> The NFB has an ethical responsibility to represent those who do not share 
> its values.  In fact, the NFB should not even *have* values. The NFB is 
> not a church or a religious organization. It should not be dictating 
> values. That is inappropriate and unethical.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jim Marks" <blind.grizzly at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
> signals
>
>
>> It's OK to be blind.  And it's sure a lot more functional to develop 
>> solid
>> blindness skills.  Blind people can either fix our environments or we can
>> learn how to be good at being blind.  Most of us blend the two options 
>> for
>> the best effect.  APS give us information about our environment.  They 
>> don't
>> affect the alternative techniques of blindness, though.
>>
>> What does this common sense approach have to do with blaming the victim 
>> and
>> being super blind?  Also, what does being super blind mean?  Aren't we
>> talking about function here?  I thought the re-print of the speech was
>> pretty good stuff.  When I read it, I thought that we are starting to 
>> turn a
>> corner to a better understanding of APS.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> Jim Marks
>> blind.grizzly at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 7:16 AM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>> signals
>>
>> My mobility skills are not at issue here. The fact is that not everyone 
>> has
>> perfect mobility skills and everyone can make a mistake. I've already 
>> posted
>>
>> a link to an article about the ways that audible walk signals help blind
>> people deal with confusing and difficult situations.  Did you read that
>> article?
>>
>> In fact, my mobility skills are just fine. But that's not the point. I 
>> have
>> had access to some of the best mobility training in the world via the
>> Wisconsin Council of the Blind and Guide dogs for the Blind. But not
>> everyone has that access. And even if they do, everyone makes mistakes.
>> Audible walk signlas help blind people avoid mistakes.
>>
>> Actually, I'm glad you brought this up. Blaming the blind person for 
>> their
>> problems is not a solution. But all too often, that is exactly what the 
>> NFB
>> does.  Its a direct result of the NFB philosophy that blindness can be
>> reduced to a mere nuiscance. Well, that may or may not even be true. But 
>> the
>>
>> main problem with it is that it inevitably results in blaming the victim. 
>> If
>>
>> you can't cross a street without audible walk signals, that's your 
>> problem.
>> If you're not Super Blind Guy (or Gal), the NFB has no use for you.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 7:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>> signals
>>
>>
>> Maybe you should get some travel training, I don't like them because when
>> the dam things are makeing all the raket, I can't hear the traffic.
>> This is a fact of life, people don't always stop for a red light, I want 
>> to
>> be able to hear them.
>> Maybe someone on the list can explain to you how blind people are able to
>> tell when the light is ready for you to cross.
>> These things are where sighted people get there negative stereotypes 
>> from.
>> They think that we can't do anything for our selves, like open a door, 
>> cross
>> the street, find a seat, carry our food, take care of our kids, and much
>> more.
>> Its guys like you that hold us back.
>> That's just one reason that they wont hire us, they think we can't do
>> anything.
>> I know someone else like you, he wont even go to the store or to the bank 
>> by
>> him self, and he knows how to, but wants everyone to know that blind 
>> people
>> are stupid and helpless.
>> Maybe you should get rehab to send you to one of the NFB training 
>> centers.
>> I whent to the Colorado center myself, they are good, I'm not shore about
>> the other 2, but I'm shore they are good as well.
>> They can show you how to tell when the light changes, and when and how to
>> cross the street
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>> signals
>>
>>
>> Yes, of course I need audible walk signals.
>>
>> I hope you're not trying to imply that I shouldn't need audible walk
>> signals. By that logic, visible walk signals are also unnecessary. That
>> would imply that cities all over the globe have wasted millions of 
>> dollars
>> installing visible walk signals for sighted people.  If you don't believe
>> that visible walk signals help sighted people cross streets more safely, 
>> you
>> should contact the traffic engineers in your city and they will set you
>> straight. Just as visible signals help sighted people cross streets more
>> safely, audible signals help blind pedestrians cross streets more safely.
>>
>> Here is a link to some information about audible walk signals helping 
>> blind
>> people cross streets more safely:
>> http://www.apsguide.org/appendix_c_research.cfm
>>
>> If you have any reason to believe that audible signals do not help blind
>> pedestrians cross the street more safely, I would like to see it.  It
>> certainly seems counter-intuitive to say that audible signals would not 
>> make
>> blind pedestrians safer. If you're going to say that, you are obligated 
>> to
>> provide some evidence.  The NFB should not be organizing protests against
>> something that by all appearances would make blind pedestrians safer 
>> unless
>> they have some compelling reason to believe it doesn't work.
>>
>> Otherwise, the NFB should stop playing games with the lives of blind
>> pedestrians.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>> signals
>>
>>
>> Why do you think the NFB  should change its stance?
>> Do you need them?
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 9:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>> signals
>>
>>
>> As recently as 2003, the NFB organized protests against audible  walk
>> signals:
>> http://nfb.org/legacy/bm/bm03/bm0301/bm030103.htm
>>
>> Personally, I feel there is no more important issue on which the NFB 
>> needs
>> to change its stance. This is about as wrong-headed as an organization 
>> can
>> be.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>; "Florida Association 
>> of
>> Guide Dog Users" <flagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NAGDU Mailing List,the National
>> Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NFB Florida"
>> <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>; "NFB of Florida parents" <fopbc at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: "Dianne Ketts" <dianne at ketts.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:20 AM
>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals
>>
>>
>> The FCB is streaming their convention and I am currently listening to a
>> speech by an O & M instructor, Dianne Ketts, who happens to work for the
>> Lighthouse of Central Florida. I know Dianne personally and find her to 
>> be a
>> very progressive-thinking O & M instructor. She is explaining the various
>> kinds of Pedestrian signals, traffic lights and the use of audible
>> pedestrian signals. She particularly emphasizes that you need proper O & 
>> M
>> techniques and training whether or not the audible indications exists,
>> saying that the audible signal only indicates that the walk signal is
>> showing, not that it is safe to cross the street. I find her outlook
>> refreshing and the lecture fascinating.  It is interesting to learn how 
>> the
>> various lights are actuated as well as how the audible pedestrian signals
>> work. I think it would be of great use to have an explanation of these
>> various signals and the technology regarding APS'S AT A FUTURE NFBF
>> CONVENTION AND EVEN POSSIBLY AT AN NFB national convention. I really 
>> believe
>> with traffic patterns changing, with more and more cars on our roadways,
>> this information is useful for us to know. She says, for example, that
>> whether there is an APS or not, there are some intersections where it is
>> imperative for people to find the push-button. Really interesting!
>>
>> Sherri
>>
>>
>> Sherri Brun, NFBF Secretary and NewslineR Coordinator
>> E-mail:  flmom2006 at gmail.com
>> http://www.nfbnewslineonline.org
>> http://www.nfbflorida.org
>>
>> "Don't give up something you want forever for something you want only for
>> now!"
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfb-talk mailing list
> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org

More information about the nFB-Talk mailing list