[nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)

Mike Freeman k7uij at panix.com
Wed Apr 13 23:31:59 UTC 2011


Let's avoid that topic, shall we?


Mike Freeman
sent from my iPhone


On Apr 13, 2011, at 16:02, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:

> That's another great idea!
> Also, ship the illegals back!
> I wouldn't be surprised, if some of the spammers are illegal imigrants.
> Blessings, Joshua
> 
> On 4/13/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>> Actually what I favor is a different approach:  deny foreign aid to
>> countries that harbor spammers!
>> 
>> Mike Freeman
>> sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 13, 2011, at 14:16, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Mr. Freeman, let's try to invent a new alternative.
>>> I'm not a computer genius, but if someone can do this, I'd appreciate it.
>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>> 
>>> On 4/13/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>> Guys and gals:
>>>> 
>>>> Let's get real here.  John Heim is absolutely correct:  his boss may be a
>>>> decent person.  But she doesn't care a farthing how CAPTCHAs affect the
>>>> blind.  There aren't enough of us to truly affect offenders' bottom
>>>> lines.
>>>> All webmasters want is to stop spam (something all of us can sympathize
>>>> with
>>>> unless we are the spammers!).  If a few thousand people are
>>>> inconvenienced
>>>> or shut out of sites, so what?  The Federal agency for which I work gets
>>>> something like fifty thousand spam emails (yes, you heard right) each
>>>> *week*
>>>> and this wastes a heck of a lot of resources and bandwidth.  I'd guess
>>>> its
>>>> websites do also.
>>>> 
>>>> Fulminating and venting one's spleen in irrational outbursts avails us
>>>> nothing.  Neither does writing to webmasters; we'd never be able to cover
>>>> them all.  Even if we can get courts to rule that the ADA applies, I'd
>>>> bet
>>>> good money that Joshua's nemesis site would fall under the religious
>>>> exceptions to ADA requirements.
>>>> 
>>>> I sympathize with everyone's indignation; I am stymied by CAPTCHA's also.
>>>> But I'm realistic enough to realize that it's an ongoing race between
>>>> spammers/hackers and web developers.  CAPTCHAs certainly aren't the
>>>> ultimate
>>>> answer but, I submit, any solution that would allow screen-readers access
>>>> will also allow spammers/hackers access.  And yes, I've used Delta
>>>> Airlines
>>>> wonderful alternative to the CAPTCHA available on their flights where one
>>>> answers a math question.  But does this not discriminate against the
>>>> learning-disabled?  And I could envision a spammer employing a Cray or
>>>> other
>>>> super-machine to simply sort through possible answers and brute-force its
>>>> way to the solution.
>>>> 
>>>> My psychological defense is to figure that any website that leaves me out
>>>> I
>>>> don't need either.
>>>> 
>>>> I can see only two solutions:  build up a billion-dollar legal fund to
>>>> sue
>>>> every web developer or website owner (and we must figure on losing at
>>>> least
>>>> half the suits) or getting down to brass tacks and inventing and
>>>> patenting a
>>>> CAPTCHA alternative that appears convincing enough to be adopted by a
>>>> majority of web developers.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>> sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Apr 13, 2011, at 9:26, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I also agree.
>>>>> So, what's the holdup?
>>>>> Let's get the sighted people on this list to visit every site, (I've
>>>>> mentioned the sites on the Music Talk list,) and contact the
>>>>> Webmasters.
>>>>> Some of us can't contact them, because of the captcha.
>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 4/13/11, Gloria Whipple <ladygloria at webband.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I agree with you all the way!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Gloria Whipple
>>>>>> Corresponding Secretary
>>>>>> Inland Empire chapter
>>>>>> nfb of WA
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>> On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 09:05
>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  Audio captchas are of no use to the deaf-blind . For God sakes if we
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> develop the technology that allowed us to put a blind guy behind the
>>>>>> wheel
>>>>>> of an automobile and drive it independently we should be able to find a
>>>>>> way
>>>>>> to allow captchas to be recognized by screen readers while protecting
>>>>>> Web
>>>>>> sites and such from the bad guys. The belief that the technology to do
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> is not there doesn't wash with me.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:38 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> John, what's really bad, is if there are multiple blind people in a
>>>>>> church denomination, and their site's contact form, or church locater,
>>>>>> are inaccessible.
>>>>>> My organization's Website is like that.
>>>>>> They have an audio file that's supposed to play the captcha, but it
>>>>>> won't
>>>>>> play.
>>>>>> I'll post the Website here.
>>>>>> www.upci.org
>>>>>> I've contacted their IT department, but they have done nothing about
>>>>>> this.
>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 4/13/11, John Heim <john at johnheim.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> A few months ago, the Department of Justice said that the ADA applies
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> web
>>>>>>> sites. This is a big deal. Since the Department of Justice is
>>>>>>> responsible
>>>>>>> for enforcing laws like the ADA, if the Department of Justice says the
>>>>>>> ADA
>>>>>>> applies to web sites, then it does.  A business would have to go to
>>>>>>> court
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> show that the DOJ overstepped its bounds in making that determination.
>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>> the burden of proof would be on them. Well, anyway, the point is that
>>>>>>> CAPTCHAs are now illegal.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> IMO, this is one of the toughest issues we face. My own boss came to
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> yesterday wanting to put a captcha on our web site. I had to talk
>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>> long to get her to not do it. It was a really tough sell and I only
>>>>>>> got
>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>> to agree on a provisional basis. If an alternate solution I came up
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> doesn't work, she will probably insist on using the captcha. Her point
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> that the page we want to protect simply isn't visited very often by
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> people. Its not worth the trouble to make it accessible.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I've pointed out that its a matter of principle. I've even mentioned
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> bitter thing it would be for me to install captcha software. I've
>>>>>>> pointed
>>>>>>> out our legal responsibilities. All this makes little to no
>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>> All
>>>>>>> that really matters is that captchas work. Honestly, I was sitting
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> thinking of trying to write software to break captchas and sending it
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> every spammer I can find.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> By the way, my boss is not a bad person by any means. She is very open
>>>>>>> minded. I just think that if you're not blind, you don't see what the
>>>>>>> problem is.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>>>>> To: <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:25 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi, it's Joshua Lester.
>>>>>>>> I've posted this on the Faith Talk list, and the Music list, but I'm
>>>>>>>> not having any success.
>>>>>>>> I've just thought of a question.
>>>>>>>> I'd like everyone's feedback.
>>>>>>>> How can we better influence the Webmasters of their sites, to make
>>>>>>>> more accessible contact forms?
>>>>>>>> How can they make them, where they can differentiate, between Jaws,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> Robot?
>>>>>>>> I want them to make the captcha, where Jaws can catch it, and read it
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> us.
>>>>>>>> What can we do?
>>>>>>>> Thanks for your ideas.
>>>>>>>> This is for all Websites.
>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
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> 
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