[nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)

Thu Apr 14 04:27:30 UTC 2011

I'd like to know, for my part, how you back such a statement.  Seems to me that, if you're going to make a statement; regardless what it may be, you'd better be prepared to back it up pwith facts.

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The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!

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On Apr 13, 2011, at 10:12 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:

> We need to do something about them.
> It's because of them, that we can't access many Websites.
> All I want, is for there to be a way where we can deal with this captcha.
> How can we solve this problem?
> That's my main objective with this thread.
> We need to invent another alternative, and try to get it accepted.
> Any computer whizzes, out there?
> Let's work on the software.
> Blessings, Joshua
> 
> On 4/13/11, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>> Joshua and others, discussion of CAPTCHA's and how they impact the
>> blind is on topic for this list, but discussion of punishment for
>> spammers, immigrants etc., is not.  Further, many of the spammers are
>> from the good old U.S. of A.  Where are you going to send them?
>> 
>> Dave
>> 
>> At 09:20 PM 4/13/2011, you wrote:
>>> If we're investigating spammers, it's something to consider.
>>> I'm not starting a debate on illegal imigration, I'm just giving an
>>> idea on who some of these people are.
>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>> 
>>> On 4/13/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>> Let's avoid that topic, shall we?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>> sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Apr 13, 2011, at 16:02, Joshua Lester
>>>> <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> That's another great idea!
>>>>> Also, ship the illegals back!
>>>>> I wouldn't be surprised, if some of the spammers are illegal imigrants.
>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 4/13/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Actually what I favor is a different approach:  deny foreign aid to
>>>>>> countries that harbor spammers!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>>> sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Apr 13, 2011, at 14:16, Joshua Lester
>>>>>> <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mr. Freeman, let's try to invent a new alternative.
>>>>>>> I'm not a computer genius, but if someone can do this, I'd appreciate
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 4/13/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Guys and gals:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Let's get real here.  John Heim is absolutely correct:  his boss may
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> decent person.  But she doesn't care a farthing how CAPTCHAs affect
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> blind.  There aren't enough of us to truly affect offenders' bottom
>>>>>>>> lines.
>>>>>>>> All webmasters want is to stop spam (something all of us can
>>>>>>>> sympathize
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> unless we are the spammers!).  If a few thousand people are
>>>>>>>> inconvenienced
>>>>>>>> or shut out of sites, so what?  The Federal agency for which I work
>>>>>>>> gets
>>>>>>>> something like fifty thousand spam emails (yes, you heard right)
>>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>>> *week*
>>>>>>>> and this wastes a heck of a lot of resources and bandwidth.  I'd
>>>>>>>> guess
>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>> websites do also.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Fulminating and venting one's spleen in irrational outbursts avails
>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>> nothing.  Neither does writing to webmasters; we'd never be able to
>>>>>>>> cover
>>>>>>>> them all.  Even if we can get courts to rule that the ADA applies,
>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>> bet
>>>>>>>> good money that Joshua's nemesis site would fall under the religious
>>>>>>>> exceptions to ADA requirements.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I sympathize with everyone's indignation; I am stymied by CAPTCHA's
>>>>>>>> also.
>>>>>>>> But I'm realistic enough to realize that it's an ongoing race
>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>> spammers/hackers and web developers.  CAPTCHAs certainly aren't the
>>>>>>>> ultimate
>>>>>>>> answer but, I submit, any solution that would allow screen-readers
>>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>>> will also allow spammers/hackers access.  And yes, I've used Delta
>>>>>>>> Airlines
>>>>>>>> wonderful alternative to the CAPTCHA available on their flights
>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> answers a math question.  But does this not discriminate against the
>>>>>>>> learning-disabled?  And I could envision a spammer employing a Cray
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> super-machine to simply sort through possible answers and
>>>>>>>> brute-force
>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>> way to the solution.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> My psychological defense is to figure that any website that leaves
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> don't need either.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I can see only two solutions:  build up a billion-dollar legal fund
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> sue
>>>>>>>> every web developer or website owner (and we must figure on losing
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>> half the suits) or getting down to brass tacks and inventing and
>>>>>>>> patenting a
>>>>>>>> CAPTCHA alternative that appears convincing enough to be adopted by
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> majority of web developers.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>>>>> sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Apr 13, 2011, at 9:26, Joshua Lester
>>>>>>>> <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I also agree.
>>>>>>>>> So, what's the holdup?
>>>>>>>>> Let's get the sighted people on this list to visit every site,
>>>>>>>>> (I've
>>>>>>>>> mentioned the sites on the Music Talk list,) and contact the
>>>>>>>>> Webmasters.
>>>>>>>>> Some of us can't contact them, because of the captcha.
>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 4/13/11, Gloria Whipple <ladygloria at webband.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I agree with you all the way!
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Gloria Whipple
>>>>>>>>>> Corresponding Secretary
>>>>>>>>>> Inland Empire chapter
>>>>>>>>>> nfb of WA
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 09:05
>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Audio captchas are of no use to the deaf-blind . For God sakes if
>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> develop the technology that allowed us to put a blind guy behind
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> wheel
>>>>>>>>>> of an automobile and drive it independently we should be able to
>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>> to allow captchas to be recognized by screen readers while
>>>>>>>>>> protecting
>>>>>>>>>> Web
>>>>>>>>>> sites and such from the bad guys. The belief that the technology
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> is not there doesn't wash with me.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:38 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> John, what's really bad, is if there are multiple blind people in
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> church denomination, and their site's contact form, or church
>>>>>>>>>> locater,
>>>>>>>>>> are inaccessible.
>>>>>>>>>> My organization's Website is like that.
>>>>>>>>>> They have an audio file that's supposed to play the captcha, but
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> won't
>>>>>>>>>> play.
>>>>>>>>>> I'll post the Website here.
>>>>>>>>>> www.upci.org
>>>>>>>>>> I've contacted their IT department, but they have done nothing
>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/13/11, John Heim <john at johnheim.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> A few months ago, the Department of Justice said that the ADA
>>>>>>>>>>> applies
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> web
>>>>>>>>>>> sites. This is a big deal. Since the Department of Justice is
>>>>>>>>>>> responsible
>>>>>>>>>>> for enforcing laws like the ADA, if the Department of Justice
>>>>>>>>>>> says
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> ADA
>>>>>>>>>>> applies to web sites, then it does.  A business would have to go
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> court
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> show that the DOJ overstepped its bounds in making that
>>>>>>>>>>> determination.
>>>>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>>>>> the burden of proof would be on them. Well, anyway, the point is
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> CAPTCHAs are now illegal.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> IMO, this is one of the toughest issues we face. My own boss came
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>> yesterday wanting to put a captcha on our web site. I had to talk
>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>> long to get her to not do it. It was a really tough sell and I
>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>> got
>>>>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>>>> to agree on a provisional basis. If an alternate solution I came
>>>>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't work, she will probably insist on using the captcha. Her
>>>>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> that the page we want to protect simply isn't visited very often
>>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>>>> people. Its not worth the trouble to make it accessible.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I've pointed out that its a matter of principle. I've even
>>>>>>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> bitter thing it would be for me to install captcha software. I've
>>>>>>>>>>> pointed
>>>>>>>>>>> out our legal responsibilities. All this makes little to no
>>>>>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>>>>>> All
>>>>>>>>>>> that really matters is that captchas work. Honestly, I was
>>>>>>>>>>> sitting
>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>> thinking of trying to write software to break captchas and
>>>>>>>>>>> sending
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> every spammer I can find.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> By the way, my boss is not a bad person by any means. She is very
>>>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>> minded. I just think that if you're not blind, you don't see what
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> problem is.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:25 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, it's Joshua Lester.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've posted this on the Faith Talk list, and the Music list, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>> not having any success.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just thought of a question.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like everyone's feedback.
>>>>>>>>>>>> How can we better influence the Webmasters of their sites, to
>>>>>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>>>>> more accessible contact forms?
>>>>>>>>>>>> How can they make them, where they can differentiate, between
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jaws,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> Robot?
>>>>>>>>>>>> I want them to make the captcha, where Jaws can catch it, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> us.
>>>>>>>>>>>> What can we do?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your ideas.
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is for all Websites.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>> 
>> 
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> 
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