[nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando

Tue Aug 2 23:48:20 UTC 2011

Joeseph,
Good luck with your case and its unfortunate they did not contact you. Maybe 
its just taking a while with government bureaucracy.
You are right that if you did not set off the detector that they should have 
not taken further action.

Ashley

-----Original Message----- 
From: T. Joseph Carter
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 10:39 AM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando

The difference is that they do video recordings (with no audio).
When metal detectors go off, there are flashing red lights and
sounds.  There were neither when I stepped through.  That would show
on the video quite clearly.

Joseph - kf7qzc

On Mon, Aug 01, 2011 at 10:38:41AM -0500, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>I think, though, that we have to be sure we understand what the battle is. 
>If Joe was not given the option of walking alone, and if he truly did not 
>set off the
>metal detector but was searched as a sort of punishment, this would seem to 
>me to be very unusual treatment, and some complaining is in order.  As 
>these
>events go, it is always hard to know exactly what happened if one was not 
>there, and we have to count some on joe's ability to be objective.  From my
>experience with dealing with airline complaints, what one can count on 
>completely is that the staff will remember events differently than does 
>Joe, and that
>makes is very difficult to get any meaningful resolution, but raising a 
>complaint can at least raise awareness.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Steve Jacobson
>
>On Mon, 1 Aug 2011 07:27:14 -0400, Brian Miller wrote:
>
>>Hi Chuck,
>
>>I tend to agree with you with respect to picking our battles.
>
>>I do think dignity is involved, however, when ill-trained security 
>>officials
>>drag us about like children, or fail to understand how to work with 
>>someone
>>using a guide dog.
>
>>Frankly, I'm more annoyed by the woefully ill-trained sky-caps who provide
>>assistance to people with disabilities in airports to get to and from 
>>their
>>gates.  These services are farmed out to the lowest bidder, and utilize
>>workers that are clearly hired because they are the cheapest available...
>>Usually students, or, most often, individuals who are recent immigrants to
>>the United States.  I've seen many times when a sky-cap treated my wife
>>extremely rudely because she is a woman, or, because she uses a dog.
>
>>I travel a lot, and encounter this all the time, but I'm still not sure 
>>I'm
>>ready to take up the sword and charge at this issue... But I'm getting
>>there! *asmile*
>
>>Brian M
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 3:04 AM
>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>
>>I think that dignity is a relative term here. I would have to agree with 
>>the
>>position that there are much more important battles to go through every 
>>day.
>
>>I frequently have to go through security checkpoints not only in airports
>>but each time I go in to a courthouse and not only do I give up my cane 
>>but
>>warn the TSA official or deputy that it will set it off. While we may want
>>to rant and rave about indignities we do need to fit in to the sithted 
>>world
>>if we want the dignity that you are so concerned about.
>>Chuck
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "T. Joseph Carter" <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 10:26 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>
>
>>> So then I guess the TSA agent was right, if you're a fair 
>>> representative.
>>> No other blind person insisted upon his rights clearly stated in TSA
>>> regulations.
>>>
>>> An attack on the dignity of the blind is an attack on every single one
>>> of us.  If that's not your fight, then I am sorry.  If it is not the
>>> National Federation of the Blind's fight, then we have become as
>>> cowardly as the ACB and the HELP committee can safely ignore our
>>> little request that blind people be paid a fair wage for fair work,
>>> because we lack the backbone to defend what little we have won, let 
>>> alone
>>fight for more dignity.
>>>
>>> It isn't about how far I could walk with or without a cane.  It is
>>> about it being respectable to be blind.  It is about defending a law
>>> that Federationists fought and went to jail trying to win for all of
>>> us, whether you personally give a damn or not.  This was an attack on
>>> the dignity of the blind, outright, and it was an attack on every
>>> single one of us.
>>>
>>> I've pointed out that you don't feel any need or desire to defend the
>>> rights the Federation fought so hard to attain for you.  If you feel
>>> insulted by that, maybe you need to ask yourself what your life would
>>> be right now if the Federation hadn't been there to fight for the
>>> rights you have today, including those you casually disregard as not
>>> personally significant.
>>>
>>> That would be equivalent to me saying that discrimination against
>>> guide dogs isn't my fight because I use a cane.  It IS my fight,
>>> because I am a Federationist and an attack on the rights of any of us
>>> as blind citizens is an attack on every single one of us.  I don't
>>> know about anybody else, especially after reading some of the cowardly
>>> responses on this list, but that is what I go to the matt for, every
>>> single time, whether it happens to me or not.
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 12:09:16AM -0400, Brian Miller wrote:
>>>>Hi Joe,
>>>>
>>>>You're assuming I feel intimidated , and this isn't the case at all.
>>>>However, I will say that as someone who travels for work, travels for
>>>>fun, and travels often, I'm inclined to smile and nod and just let the
>>>>TSA guys have their way rather than risk my livelihood and my
>>>>lifestyle over something that is very low on my list of issues.  Using
>>>>my cane to go through the machine is likely to set it off, as it has
>>>>metal on the tip, the chain, and sometimes things attached to the
>>>>chain.  To me, putting my cane on the belt and walking maybe five to
>>>>ten steps at most and getting my cane on the other side is not taxing
>>>>my skills, my patience, or my dignity.
>>>>There are plenty of other things that do, however, but this isn't one
>>>>of them.
>>>>
>>>>I've said that it sure sounds like you got rotten treatment at the
>>>>hands of the TSA guys, and I think you should pursue a complaint, but
>>>>don't put words in my mouth, impune my integrity, or frankly insult me
>>>>because this just isn't my fight.  Do I like the brutalizing we all
>>>>get at the security check points?  Of course not, but this is an issue
>>>>way bigger than all of us here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Airports are full of idiots who know nothing about blindness -- have
>>>>you had a sky cap assist you lately?  Talk about insulting!  A gate
>>>>agent recently accused my wife of faking being blind because she was
>>>>such a competent traveler.  Now that's something I'm willing to go to
>>>>the matt over...
>>>>
>>>>Best of luck,
>>>>
>>>>Brian M
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter
>>>>Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 11:29 PM
>>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>
>>>>So what you're saying, Brian, is that you're willing to be intimidated
>>>>into giving up your rights, because the big boogeyman TSA agents can
>>>>do too much to you if you don't do exactly what they say, whether it's
>>>>illegal or flies in the face of every battle we have fought long and
>>>>hard for as an organization?
>>>>
>>>>Just want to be sure I understand here.  Because the TSA said that of
>>>>nearly 3,000 blind people going through the airport, I'm the only one
>>>>who insisted that I had a right NOT to be led around like a child,
>>>>denied the use of my cane for travel.
>>>>
>>>>Joseph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 09:07:58PM -0400, Brian Miller wrote:
>>>>>Hi Peter,
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't think anyone feels that Joe was treated well, or with the
>>>>>respect he deserves, but security checks are a serious hassle and a
>>>>>drag for everyone, and indignities abound.  I think solidarity across
>>>>>the board, and not just for blind people, is in order.
>>>>>
>>>>>I merely say that for me using my cane to walk a few feet through the
>>>>>metal detector is not worth fighting over -- the last thing I need is
>>>>>to end up on a "no fly" list.  The point is, you are exactly right
>>>>>that the blind have been fighting, and getting arrested, and going to
>>>>>jail, for years over our right to have our mobility devices, and
>>>>>we've won some, and lost many others.  I think we need to figure out
>>>>>where to focus our energies to maximize independence while
>>>>>recognizing that we face a very difficult environment in which to
>>>>>make our arguments when it
>>>>comes to security.
>>>>>
>>>>>Heck, we still don't, and maybe never will, have the right to sit in
>>>>>the emergency row -- now that makes me feel more like a child than
>>>>>does a quick guide through the magnetometer .
>>>>>
>>>>>Not long ago Dr. Fred Schoeder was denied the right to fly to a
>>>>>meeting because he was traveling alone... Granted, this was not in
>>>>>the United States, but that kind of right of freedom of movement, is
>>>>>something I'm willing to lie down on the tarmac for and go to
>>>>>jail.... Maybe not a jail in Thailand, though *smile*
>>>>>
>>>>>In any case, I don't think Alicia, or any of us, are trying to
>>>>>miminize the fight we all face.
>>>>>
>>>>>Brian M
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>[mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>On Behalf Of Peter Donahue
>>>>>Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 11:30 AM
>>>>>To: Alicia Richards; NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>>
>>>>>Hello Alicia and everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>The next time you pass through a TSA Check point we'll cut both of
>>>>>your feet off and demand that you walk through like anyone else.
>>>>>Blind people have fought long and hard to be allowed to keep their
>>>>>canes and dogs with them at all times while passing through TSA check
>>>>>points and on
>>>>planes themselves.
>>>>>Blind people were arrested and went to jail to insure these rights
>>>>>are protected and we don't need our own people telling us that it's
>>>>>not a big deal.
>>>>>
>>>>>Peter Donahue who along with Mary took their last flight ever on a
>>>>>commercial airliner and can look forward to avoiding TSA screeners in
>>>>>the future!
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Alicia Richards" <alicianfb at gmail.com>
>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 11:37 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I agree with Mike and others here.  Yes, the TSA has been given too
>>>>>much power.  It's shameful that they can perform such invasive
>>>>>patdowns, violating one's personal space and dignity.  but as Ryan
>>>>>said, that's not a blindness issue: they can do that to anyone.  And,
>>>>>I've never understood people's issue with giving up their cane for 30
>>>>>seconds, taking someone's hand to walk five steps through the
>>>>>security check, and then have their cane handed right back to them.
>>>>>I question someone's mobility training if they are unable to walk
>>>>>five steps without their cane, and also can't help but wonder if
>>>>>they're exhibiting what I believe was once called, "rebellious
>>independence,"
>>>>>by refusing to take the hand or arm of a TSA official for that very
>>>>>brief time.  But to each their own.  Joseph, I'll be curious if you
>>>>>get a
>>>>reply from Scott LaBarre about this?
>>>>>
>>>>>Alicia
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>>>signature database 6282 (20110710) __________
>>>>>
>>>>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.eset.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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