[nfbcs] UltraEdit

Wed Jan 14 22:25:23 UTC 2009

Joe,

I'm sorry, I was writing quickly and probably took things too quickly.  Let me take a couple of stabs at this.  let me know if I get too basic here.

When one tries a new application, it is important to know what the application does and what the screen reader does.  Let's take NotePad for starters.  If you have 
text in NotePad and you arrow around, NotePad moves the cursor according to the keys you press.  In general, though, NotePad does absolutely nothing to provide 
you with any audible feedback.  When you press LEFT ARROW, you would only hear LEFT ARROW without a script.  JFW or other screen reader attaches a 
process or script to the LEFT ARROW key which first sends the LEFT ARROW on to NotePad and then speaks the character upon which the cursor lands.  Now if 
you go into Excel and open a populated spread sheet, the LEFT ARROW does something completely different,  Instead of moving the cursor, it moves one whole 
cell to the left.  If the same script you used in NotePad was used in Excel, one of two things would happen.  If you are lucky, you might hear one character of the 
new cell.  more likely, though, you would hear a "ding" because there is usually no cursor so the screen reader cannot read the character at the cursor.  Therefore, 
when you load Excel, different scripts are associated with the various keys that read the content of the cell to which you are moving.

A similar situation exists with CONTROL UP and CONTROL DOWN.  In Word these keys move to the next and previous paragraph mark.  In NotePad, though, 
there do not appear to me to be definitions for CONTROL UP and CONTROL DOWN.  If you are using these keys in NotePad, you probably are using JFW scripts 
to do all the work including finding the next and previous paragraph besides speaking them.  In Word, a paragraph is bounded by a "paragraph mark" but in a text 
editor it is usually bounded by a blank line or by two consecutive carriage-return, Linefeed characters.  The script has to do the work of actually moving the cursor 
until a line is found that meets the criteria.  The method that is used in NotePad, may or may not work with other editors because they don't necessarily work the 
same.  If a script doesn't work, it doesn't mean that the script is bad nor does it mean the editor is bad, it just means that they don't work together as is.  Generally, 
this sort of thing can happen with any new application that you try to some degree.  Some keystrokes such as ALT-F4 to close are pretty standard among Windows 
applications, but many are not.  Therefore, the first thing I try to do when I look at something like an editor is to see how reliably the cursor is tracked using the LEFT 
and RIGHT ARROW keys since that is pretty standard.  Next, I try to determine whether reading line by line is accurage.  In an editor, it is very important to me that I 
don't need to redraw or refresh the screen often because I can't affort to be worrying whether the text I hear is wrong or if I just need to redraw or refresh the screen.  
This can vary because there is no neat little screen buffer as there was in the days of DOS.  Rather, screen readers keep track of what was placed where is a sort 
of database called the Off-screen Model or OSM.  Sometimes the fastest editors take shortcuts to speed up the display which can confuse the OSM resulting in the 
need to redraw or refresh the screen.  

 You can't expect that functionality built into Word or even into scripts for NotePad can be transferred to any similar application without modification.  Even text 
editors will do some things differently.  Generally, most modifications are not hard to make, though, and there might be someone who has JFW scripts for UltraEdit 
and NoteTab that might give additional functionality.  Some functions such as CONTROL LEFT and CONTROL RIGHT are implemented in a fairly uniform way 
between word processors, so those functions usually do work all right.  What can even come into play there, though, is whether a screen reader defines a word the 
same as the software.  If a screen reader thinks a word is defined as characters surround by spaces, tabs or line boundaries, but the editor also includes 
underscores as a word separator, you may need multiple presses of CONTROL RIGHT before you hear the word change.  UltraEdit lets you decide if underscore is 
a word separator, and Window-Eyes has two ways of defining words to avoid this.

I am afraid my explanations may make this sound worse than it is, but this is why there has always been a question of when to have software written for the blind as 
opposed to scripting applications using a screen reader's functions.  Because of JFW scripts and Window-Eyes scripts and Set files, the average user is heavily 
using scripted applications all the time.  There is a lot of scripting in Word and Excel for example, and when it is done well, it is pretty transparent.  When looking at 
whether an application can be used, it becomes more important to understand what can easily be done by scripting and what kinds of things truly make an 
application difficult to use.  Given your background and interest, I think you are very much able to understand this with a question or two, and the knowledge will 
serve you well in the future.  Also, discussion like this is very important because we all need to understand the interaction of screen readers and applications to make 
sensible suggestions regarding accessibility.  It is clear that even with a program like EdSharp available to us in the case of editors, many types of application classes 
have no fallback to use, we have to use what is out there and will need to be talking to developers to get the information we need.  Anyway, good luck, and ask if 
you have questions.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:32:13 -0500, Joe Orozco wrote:

>Okay, earlier I said I felt confident in my advanced status at making JAWS
>work with programs.  Let's revise that "advanced" status to "novice,"
>because I have never dealt with keyboard assignments and scripts to increase
>functionality.  I guess I've never been afraid of using the JAWS cursor and
>labeling graphics and such to make things talk to me.  Beyond that I'm
>pretty dumb.

>You're saying Control + arrows are already a keystroke of UltraEdit.  But,
>you're saying there's a way for JAWS to override these keystrokes to allow
>it to read paragraph by paragraph?  The Help menu you're referring to.  This
>is in JAWS, correct?  Because I did not find this option in UltraEdit.
>Also, Alt + left and right did not do anything for me except to echo the
>keys I pressed.

>Bottom line: I need a little more light on how to make JAWS keystrokes
>behave differently for this application and does not impact my global setup.
>Thank you sir.

>Joe Orozco

>"Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M.
>Barrie
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>Of Steve Jacobson
>Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:06 PM
>To: NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] UltraEdit

>Joe,

>I was wrong, I had not sent this out.

>Case in point regarding keeping your original testing relatively simple.  I
>did some digging, and I found that in UltraEdit, CONTROL UP and CONTROL DOWN
>scroll the display keeping the cursor in the view.  If JFW sends this key
>and then reads the current paragraph, the results are going to be
>unreliable.  If, on the other hand, JFW attempts to find the next or
>previous paragraph using UP ARROW and DOWN ARROW keystrokes to be
>independent of the editor being used, it may work but will read poorly if
>the text is too wide for the display and word wrap is off.

>On the other hand, UltraEdit comes with ALT LEFT and ALT RIGHT assigned to
>move to previous and next paragraph.  A script could be attached to these
>keys to send ALT LEFT or ALT RIGHT and then speak the current paragraph and
>that may work.  Text that is too wide will still be a problem, though.
>Also, CONTROL UP and CONTROL DOWN could be remapped to read by paragraph and
>the existing scripts might work as is depending upon how they are written.
>The point is that this is pretty much all a function of the interaction
>between the screen reader and the editor and, in and of itself, is not
>really a useability issue.  

>You can view all the keyboard assignments and commands by going to the HELP
>Index and looking for Keyboard Commands.  In addition, the Keyboard Mapping
>dialog has the ability to write out all assigned keys and their commands to
>a file.  You can also attach scripts and macros to keys as well.

>let me know if any of this is not clear.

>Best regards,

>Steve Jacobson

>On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:01:55 -0500, Joe Orozco wrote:

>>Steve,

>>On the contrary, I like to know my options.  It's been firmly 
>>established that EdSharp is not a bad program, but that should not 
>>exclude other packages with a range of features that give EdSharp 
>>competition.  As I've said, the speed is an issue for me.  This is 
>>easily overlooked, but the menu of accessories is sometimes put on the 
>>spot when other programs appear to have a competitive interface and
>capacity.

>>For my purposes, I need a robust text editor with a decent HTML 
>>capacity.  I spend about equal time manipulating both areas, and I 
>>don't mind spending the money if it means a central program with the 
>>ability to perform well in both environments.  I made the investment on 
>>DreamWeaver, and while I would rely on this mammoth program to design 
>>larger projects, I'm interested in a solid NotePad replacement that can 
>>be exercised for daily tasks that do not require extravagant bells and 
>>whistles.  Besides, I believe in my own capacity to do things by hand 
>>even if it takes a little longer.  Anyway, this is all to give you a sense
>of what I'm trying to do with the program.

>>Unfortunately, I did not find an earlier version of UltraEdit on 
>>Download.com.  I wonder if reverting to Lloyd's version 10 might do me 
>>good, but I am convinced there is a way to make the thing work.  And 
>>like you, I believe the problem is squarely with JAWS.

>>Anyway, I'll keep you posted, and hope you'll do the same.

>>Best,

>>Joe Orozco

>>"Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M.
>>Barrie
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 10:49 PM
>>To: NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] UltraEdit

>>Joe,

>>One of the reasons that Jamal wrote EdSharp was so that people could 
>>avoid the kind of problems you are going through.  Generally, I think 
>>he did a good job.  It isn't easy, though, to be both an expert in 
>>accessibility and an expert in text editing, especially as environments 
>>change.  Still he deserves credit, and if you find you run into 
>>trouble, EdSharp isn't a bad fallback.  I would have thought twice 
>>about suggesting this little side-trip if I knew this was going to cause
>the trouble it has caused you.

>>I am not certain, but I believe that the messages you are getting 
>>regarding the next paragraph is coming from a JFW script.  My guess is 
>>that this could be worked out by altering something within UltraEdit 
>>and NoteTab, or by altering something in the JFW script itself.  Some 
>>editors have a "next paragraph" key and some do not.  The script can be 
>>written to use the editor's next paragraph key or it can move the 
>>cursor itself and determin where the paragraph boundary is.  If it uses 
>>the editor's keystrokes and they either behave differently or the same 
>>keystrokes do different things, you will get unusual responses.  Also, 
>>if you are moving by paragraph in text, you will want to turn word 
>>wrapping on.  This does not add line breaks permanently to the 
>>document, but it could make a difference when a screen reader is trying to
>read a paragraph.  It insures all text is on the screen.
>>You can toggle word wrap on and off with CONTROL-W, or you can check 
>>and change its status on the Edit Menu with the "Toggle Word Wrap" 
>>option.  It is near the bottom of a long list, so you can get there 
>>more quickly using the UP ARROW after bringing up the Edit menu.

>>I would urge you to start out just exploring the editors you try at 
>>their basic navigation to see if they offer what you need.
>>You can't really judge any editor by how it reacts to JFW scripts not 
>>written for it.  As I understand it, that is partly why Jamal 
>>incorporates his HOMER scripts into the distributions of his products 
>>so he has control over both.  That makes a lot of sense.

>>I could do a lot more with Window-Eyes than I do with UltraEdit, but 
>>all I have done is to assign a key to read the part of the status line 
>>that provides the line and column number in the document.  If I were 
>>more heavily into HTML, I might find it necessary to do more, though.

>>I'm glad to try to offer more suggestions if you are interested, on or 
>>off list, as long as you understand that I am not doing so because I 
>>think UltraEdit is right for everyone nor am I saying one shouldn't use
>EdSharp.
>>I just think that if one is going to do some serious text editing, it's 
>>good to know what is out there before making a decision just as you 
>>seem to be doing.

>>Best regards,

>>Steve Jacobson

>>On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:15:41 -0500, Joe Orozco wrote:

>>>Steve,

>>>I'm continuing the thread on list in case it benefits anyone else, but 
>>>if folks are getting tired of it, let me know.

>>>I found the settings you outlined in your last message.  Neither 
>>>helped, but I did turn off the Ruler off the View menu, which I'd
>>previously neglected.
>>>Anyway, we've made some progress.  Now I can navigate the document 
>>>using the arrows; however, I appear to be limited to this.  Jumping 
>>>paragraph to paragraph produces random jumps and repeats.  Or, I get a 
>>>suggestion to maximize the window because the block is too large.  I 
>>>maximize, but again the results are sketchy.

>>>Now, we could chalk it up to a problem with UltraEdit; however, the 
>>>same thing appears to be happening with NoteTab Pro.  I switched back 
>>>from JAWS 10 to JAWS 7.1, and the results are the same.  Could it have 
>>>anything at all to do with the fact that both packages are being used 
>>>on a
>>trial basis?

>>>Also, how does one utilize the spell-check function on either package?

>>>Thanks for patiently walking me through this strange behavior.  I know 
>>>it must have something to do with JAWS, but ironically, EdSharp seems 
>>>to be working just fine.  My only beef with this program is that it is 
>>>slower than I would like it to behave.

>>>Any additional thoughts and/or suggestions would be appreciated.  
>>>Thank
>>you.

>>>Joe Orozco

>>>"Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James
>M.
>>>Barrie
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>>Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 5:19 PM
>>>To: NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List
>>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] UltraEdit

>>>Joe,

>>>Let's try to get you to the cursor options before you give up because 
>>>they are there but not real obvious.  I believe it is likely that 
>>>something there will help.  You JFW users really should bug Freedom 
>>>Scientific because JFW seems more sensitive to cursor shapes than does 
>>>Window-Eyes.  I have noticed this with 3270 emulation as well.

>>>Go to the "Advanced menu, and press ENGER on Configuration.  You are 
>>>now in a sort of huge tree view with a number of sections.  Each 
>>>section starts with an "advanced item if you were to DOWN ARROW 
>>>through it, but don't do that.  If you press TAB, you should be in an edit
>box.
>>>This feature lets you search for specific options.  If you type in the 
>>>word "cursor" and then press the "GO" button which is the next thing 
>>>in the tab order, you should find yourself in the "cursor" options.
>>>The first option is a pair of radio check boxes that lets you choose 
>>>between a vertical bar or underscore for the "Normal cursor/caret".
>>>This is the one that is used in INSERT mode and is usually being used.  
>>>You might want to change this to see if it makes a difference.

>>>tabbing to the next option lets you decide what you want the cursor to 
>>>look like in overstrike mode.  A couple of options involve block and 
>>>inverse cursors and I have found JFW to sometimes have trouble with 
>>>these.  I would set that option to force the normal cursor to be used 
>>>so you have fewer variables.

>>>Check this out and let me know what happens.  I am happy enough with 
>>>this program that I will go ahead and ask if anybody on a programming 
>>>list I am subscribed to knows what the key here is.  Obviously, this 
>>>is only worth so much time for you and I realize that, but I think it 
>>>is likely that there is something pretty simple that we are missing so 
>>>far and this seems the most likely.

>>>On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:11:07 -0500, Joe Orozco wrote:

>>>>Steve,

>>>>I'm afraid I have continued to have no success with UltraEditor.  I 
>>>>unchecked everything on the View Toolbars except Main.  JFW began 
>>>>reading one line at a time, but it would only read the current line 
>>>>and then get stuck on that line.  I went to Tools/Configuration, but 
>>>>all I have found there is Command Line, Browse and nothing that would 
>>>>indicate a menu.  I went to the option that just says Configure but 
>>>>found nothing with a cursor option.  It's frustrating because the 
>>>>program appears to have a lot of what I'm looking for, though I 
>>>>suppose I may need to look into this NoteTab Pro you mentioned 
>>>>earlier.  Let me
>>>know if you have any other suggestions.

>>>>Best,

>>>>Joe Orozco

>>>>"Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for 
>>>>humanity."--James
>>M.
>>>>Barrie
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>>>Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
>>>>Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 11:29 AM
>>>>To: NFBCS; NFB-Web
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] UltraEdit

>>>>Joe,

>>>>I am using UltraEdit 14.10 and also used 14.0 with Window-Eyes and 
>>>>have not had the problem you are having.
>>>>However, it is my understanding that people with JFW are using it as
>well.
>>>>I can make several suggestions, though.

>>>>First, go to the view menu and uncheck all extras on the screen.  
>>>>These are like other view menus where you press ENTER and you leave 
>>>>the menu altogether but the status of the given item has been changed.
>>>>Most of these will be in the views/lists submenu.  I am not saying 
>>>>you can't have any of these on, only that at this point we don't know 
>>>>which might be causing you problems.  Second, see if you get 
>>>>different results by pressing INSERT changing from INSERT mode to
>overtype mode.
>>>>This changes the cursor.  If JFW tracks the overtype cursor but not 
>>>>the INSERT cursor, you can change the appearance of the cursor on the 
>>>>Tools/Configuration menu.  This is a very large menu, and you can 
>>>>type "cursor" into the "navigate" edit box and you will be taken right
>there.

>>>>Given the problem that someone else mentioned about UltraEdit adding 
>>>>characters and the problems you are having, you could also check out 
>>>>NoteTab Pro at

>>>>http://www.notetab.com

>>>>because that is another very good alternative.  I switched from that 
>>>>to UltraEdit for reasons unrelated to HTML, but you might have better 
>>>>luck there.  When I switched, I didn't like the user interface of 
>>>>NoteTab as well as UltraEdit's.

>>>>I would definitely urge you to find and successfully use at least one 
>>>>mainstream editor to try just so you get a feel for the features that 
>>>>are out there and what the accessibility issues are.  Also, certainly 
>>>>contact Jamal as suggested because he may either not be aware of the 
>>>>problem you had or he may already have a workaround.  Let me know if 
>>>>you have any luck with UltraEdit or if you have any questions.

>>>>Best regards,

>>>>Steve Jacobson

>>>>On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 03:04:57 -0500, Joe Orozco wrote:

>>>>>Hello,

>>>>>I downloaded the recent version of UltraEdit, 14.0.  Unfortunately, 
>>>>>I can't get JAWS to read what I have typed into the file.  Is there 
>>>>>a setting I can check or uncheck to make the text accessible, or 
>>>>>might this be a glitch of the new version?  Everything else appears 
>>>>>to be accessible.  I have not yet given up on EdSharp, but I thought 
>>>>>I'd try out another text editor, just in case.

>>>>>Joe Orozco

>>>>>"Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for 
>>>>>humanity."--James
>>>M.
>>>>>Barrie

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