[nfbcs] Adaptive Technology and Your Pocketbook

[John G. Heim]

Joe,

I don't think you realize how insulting your tone is. I'm not the only one 
who noticed. For the record, I didn't "play the victim card". That too is 
insulting, by the way. It would be impossible for you to victimize me 
because you don't have any power over me. I can take anything you can dish 
out. I just think you should cut it out.

Anyway, it's ridiculous for you to say I don't have an open mind when all 
I've done is ask you questions. Question after question after question. Its 
not my fault you don't have answers.

I guess... If you want to try to tell FS how to do business, what do I care. 
I don't think it makes any sense but I suppose it's no business of mine.

The only other thing I would suggest is that instead of setting up your own 
organization or group or whatever, you work within existing organizations 
that are already doing fund raising and lobbying

I'm out of here.

From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Adaptive Technology and Your Pocketbook


> John,
>
> Let's not play the victim card here.  You're too intelligent for that.  As
> far as open minds go, I dare say you have completely balked at my idea
> before it can even be called a fledgling, but let me try to address your
> points again.  I do hope you will respond, because your feedback is what
> could make this effort stronger.
>
> To your first point, the fact that there are free and low cost screen
> reading solutions does not prove that prices for other products are not
> artificially high.  It means other companies responded to the problem of
> people unable to afford the leading products on the market.  These 
> products
> are new.  They do not offer the wide range of accessibility of other
> products, but to me this is slightly irrelevant.  If I'm understanding 
> your
> logic correctly, people do not have to pay for JAWS if they don't want to,
> but I'm interested in the reverse side of this argument.  What happens 
> with
> the people who do want JAWS?  I'm no socialist in favor of absolute 
> equality
> across the board.  People ought to make sacrifices if they want better
> products, but it is my belief, one shared by many others, that the current
> price levels do not even make sacrifices worth it because the amount is 
> not
> even in the ballpark of what they could afford.
>
> Now, I only cite JAWS because GW Micro has at least implemented a payment
> plan for customers to lease a copy of Window Eyes.  If one leading company
> has done it, why hasn't Freedom Scientific?  This, after all, goes back to
> your own argument of competition.  All of this might very well be resolved
> if companies exercised similar payment plan practices.  In this scenario
> companies would not lose any money.  In fact, the argument could be made
> that companies would make a little more money.  No one has decided what 
> the
> solution of our efforts should be.  Quit jumping to the conclusion that 
> our
> sole aim is to force companies to lower prices at the risk of negatively
> impacting development and production.
>
> Secondly, I cannot yet answer the question of leverage because I do not 
> yet
> fully understand the problem.  Part of what my group has already begun 
> doing
> is collecting data of how the current market affects everyone from 
> companies
> to government agencies to the training instructors who deal with customers
> long after the product has been purchased and finally to the consumers who
> ultimately rely on the products to stay employed.  We should try to get a
> sense of how much it costs to develop a single notetaker.  We really 
> should
> talk to companies about universal acceptance of payment plans.  We should
> set up an authoritative source where customer reviews can be collected of
> products the way other websites routinely evaluate mainstream products.  I
> know that we ought to help the NFB with the promotion of the technology 
> bill
> of rights legislation, because ultimately the ideal solution would be for
> mainstream products to follow the lead of Apple, Olympus and other
> manufacturers.  If all else fails, perhaps we should pool our resources to
> help raise money to help those professionals who would otherwise be unable
> to afford technology they need.  I'm already leading development and
> fundraising efforts for a national consumer protection group, who has also
> pledged its support to use its advocacy network to help mobilize support 
> for
> the NFB legislation.
>
> The point is, I am still learning how to best address the issue.  How I 
> came
> to be interested in the issue at all is nothing more inspiring than a long
> list of people on multiple lists complaining of how they cannot afford 
> what
> they need to do well in school and work, but to me, that's inspiring 
> enough.
> I'm no hero.  I can't very well be that when I clearly do not have all the
> answers, but you know, enough people have responded who are interested in
> studying the issue and figuring out a way to make things better.
>
> I hope despite our differences you too will consider lending your talents.
> If I'm wrong, I suppose I'll look like an enormous idiot.  If I do wind up
> looking like an ass, it won't be on account of lack of hard work and a lot
> of creativity.
>
> Best,
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
> crowd."--Max Lucado
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G. Heim
> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 10:06 AM
> To: NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Adaptive Technology and Your Pocketbook
>
> Joe,
>
> Its totally inappropriate for you to attack me personally. All
> I did was ask
> questions. If you're not interested in opposing points of view,
> you should
> have said so right up front. It's obvious that you are bound
> and determined
> to continue on the course you've already settled on in spite of
> what anyone
> says.
>
> Well, anyway, back to the facts. I have 2 points to make which
> you still
> have not addressed.
>
> 1. What evidence do you have to believe that prices for accessible
> technologies are artificially high. That prices are high is not
> evidence
> that they are *artificially* high. There is a considerable amount of
> evidence that prices are not artificially high much of which
> I've already
> mentioned. There is at least one totally free commercial screen reader
> available for Windows, system access. There is another free commercial
> screen reader available for Mac OS. And there are several free
> open source
> screen readers. At least in the area of screen readers, there
> is absolutely
> a great deal of price competition. It stands to reason that the
> competition
> over flows into other areas. GW Micro even has a price/performance
> comparison chart for note takers on its web site. Now, in spite
> of all this
> evidence, you continue to insist that prices are artificially
> high. But why?
>
> 2. What do you think a campaign can accomplish that competition
> cannot? Even
> if your assertion that competition is ineffective, and I don't
> believe it
> is, what do you think a campaign will do? This is not an idle
> question. I
> would like to know how you're going to approach the problem.  It seems
> unlikely that if accessibility technology manufacturers are deliberatly
> inflating prices, they they'll lower them just because you ask. I mean,
> Freedom Scientific is not going to say, "Huh, all this time we
> thought blind
> people liked paying  $6000 for a note taker. Okay, the price is
> now $600."
> If you ask me why should accessible technology companies lower
> their price
> regardless of competition, I'll point out that I asked you
> first. If they're
> not going to lower it for competition sake, why should they
> lower it for
> you?
>
> In other words ,I would like to know what kind of leverage you
> are planning
> to bring to bear in your campaign.  That's a fair question.
> PS: Feel free to ignore my questions. I may kill this entire
> thread anyway.
> I'm not interested in arguing with someone who has already made
> up their
> mind anyway.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 7:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Adaptive Technology and Your Pocketbook
>
>
>> John,
>>
>> You're quite the little ray of sunshine, aren't you?
>>
>> Competition is not the answer, because as long as there is a
> small group
>> of
>> players, neither one will blink and drop prices to get more
> customers.
>> Why
>> should a company drop prices if they can get away with
> staying in the same
>> general neighborhood as the others?  This is not exactly a phenomenon
>> limited to the blindness market.  It's simple enterprise.
>>
>> Freedom Scientific is not losing customers to Apple, because
> the PC is
>> still
>> dominant.  People have certainly migrated to the Mac, and there are
>> benefits
>> to purchasing a computer that comes talking out of the box.  Yet, the
>> average consumer will be hard pressed to learn a new
> operating system for
>> the sake of a built-in screen reader that is still growing and whose
>> overall
>> platform is still inferior to the compatibility of the PC.  I'm not
>> bashing
>> Apple.  On the contrary, I applaud their work, but don't
> allow your own
>> computer preferences to make you assume your views are shared by the
>> majority of consumers, blind or sighted.
>>
>> And, no, I think that while some people will move over to
> less expensive
>> options like NVDA, people ultimately know that the
> accessibility of these
>> choices does not rival the accessibility of JAWS and Window
> Eyes.  Talk to
>> David Andrews who pointed out that the introduction of these
> products can
>> actually hurt the adaptive industry.
>>
>> I'm not looking for a JAWS alternative.  I don't care for the price
>> associated with purchasing new upgrades, but for now it's
> what I have to
>> pay
>> to get the accessibility I need.  Yet, you assume this is a
> self-motivated
>> campaign designed to air out my own grievances.  Believe it
> or not, I care
>> about people without the means to buy their own technology.
> In today's
>> economy there's no telling when I find myself in the same
> position to be
>> unable to buy what I need to get by.
>>
>> It's not a matter of ethics when you compare the cost of a mainstream
>> product to the astronomical cost of an adaptive one.  I think
> this is the
>> strategy of an informed consumer.  Voting with my dollars
> will hardly put
>> a
>> dent in what is already at least a $30 million sales
> operation in the case
>> of Freedom Scientific, according to public records, and that's only an
>> estimate.  WAFRA Partners only purchases companies that
> generate a minimum
>> revenue of $20 million.  That too is public record.  I could
> be stupid and
>> assume my refusing to pay $260 for a JAWS upgrade will make
> them shake
>> their
>> heads and think, "wow, you know, maybe I should bring down prices."
>> Seriously, don't be delusional.
>>
>> And, don't be a naysayer.  You have no idea how the campaign
> will evolve.
>> If people don't step up to the plate, it won't even happen, because
>> ultimately I am only interested in helping people who want to
> try to help
>> themselves.  You don't even know how the companies will
> respond, because
>> until there is reason to believe otherwise, we can only hope
> that what is
>> achieved is a true compromise that does not deprive companies
> of the funds
>> necessary to step up development and does not bar consumers
> from taking
>> advantage of all the technology.  What you do know is that whatever
>> benefits
>> are achieved from our little group of diverse professionals
> are also going
>> to benefit you.  Don't sit there and throw up objections to
> something good
>> that could happen without your raising a finger.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> Joe Orozco
>>
>> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
>> crowd."--Max Lucado
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G. Heim
>> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 5:55 PM
>> To: NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Adaptive Technology and Your Pocketbook
>>
>> I can't figure out what you think a campaign can do that
>> competition isn't
>> already doing.
>>
>> Don't you think that Freedom Scientific knows its losing
>> customers to Apple
>> and voiceover? Not to mention nvda, orca, and system access?
>> Don't you think
>> FS, GW Micro, and Humanware are already doing as much as they
>> can to keep
>> their prices low in order to sell more products than their
>> competitors? I
>> really think that if you went to FS and said that you'd really
>> like them to
>> lower the price of the Pac Mate, they'd say that they only wish
>> they could
>> so that they could out sell GWM and Humanware.
>>
>> I mean, if you don't like Freedom Scientific's pricing structure, buy
>> Window-eyes instead. Or buy a Mac and use voiceOver. That's
>> what I did. In
>> fact, I told FS that. I actually called the sales number at FS,
>> asked how
>> much it would cost to upgrade jaws and when they said like a
>> million dollars
>> (whatever) I told them that I was going to buy a Macintosh. And
>> I did.  I'm
>> still using an old version of jaws at work but I will probably
>> never buy
>> another jaws license.
>>
>> Anyway, I just don't see what a campaign can do that voting with your
>> dollars can't do much better.
>>
>> Besides, I think its unethical to accuse a company of gouging
>> its customers
>> without evidence. ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>; "'NFB
> Webmaster's
>> List'" <nfb-web at nfbnet.org>; "'Discussion list for
>> NABS,National Alliance of
>> Blind Students.'" <nabs at acb.org>; "'The PAC Mate User List'"
>> <pmlist at pacmategear.com>; <gw-notetaker at gwmicro.com>; "'Braillenote'"
>> <braillenote at list.humanware.com>; "'nfb-texas members'"
>> <members at nfb-texas.org>; <ATCNFB at yahoogroups.com>; "'Arizona
> Students'"
>> <arizona-students at nfbnet.org>; "'California Students'"
>> <cabs-talk at nfbnet.org>; "'Colorado Center'" <ccb-alumni at nfbnet.org>;
>> "'Colorado Students'" <cabs at nfbnet.org>; "'Florida Students'"
>> <fabs at nfbnet.org>; "'Illinois Students'"
>> <iabs-talk at nfbnet.org>; "'Kansas
>> Students'" <kabs at nfbnet.org>; "'Kentucky Students'"
>> <nfbkabs at nfbnet.org>;
>> "'Louisiana Students'" <la-students at nfbnet.org>; "'Michigan'"
>> <mi-abs at nfbnet.org>; "'Minnesota Students'" <mn-abs at nfbnet.org>;
>> "'Missouri'" <mabs at nfbnet.org>; "'National'" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>;
>> "'Nebraska'" <nebraska-students at nfbnet.org>; "'New Hampshire
> Students'"
>> <new-hampshire-students at nfbnet.org>; "'New Jersey Students'"
>> <njabs-talk at nfbnet.org>; "'North Carolina Students'"
>> <ncabs at nfbnet.org>;
>> "'Ohio'" <oabs at nfbnet.org>; "'Pennsylvania'" <nfbofpa at att.net>;
>> "'Presidents'" <Nabs-presidents at nfbnet.org>; "'TABS Students'"
>> <tabs_students at googlegroups.com>; "'Tennessee Students'"
>> <tabs at nfbnet.org>;
>> "'Utah Students'" <uabs at nfbnet.org>; "'Virginia Students'"
>> <vabs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 2:21 PM
>> Subject: [nfbcs] Adaptive Technology and Your Pocketbook
>>
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Over the past couple days I have engaged a discussion on
> several lists
>>> concerning the price of adaptive technology.  There are
>> varying views on
>>> whether or not these prices are fair, and there appears to be
>> interest in
>>> creating a campaign to address the issue.  If you are interested in
>>> lending
>>> your views or your support, please e-mail me at the address
>> below.  This
>>> would be preferable to a prolonged discussion across multiple lists.
>>> Please
>>> e-mail anyone you feel would be interested in participating,
>> and please
>>> especially help us find representatives from the leading adaptive
>>> technology
>>> companies.  We are not interested in creating a landscape of
>> corporations
>>> versus consumers.  At this time there is no evidence
>> suggesting adaptive
>>> technology companies are not willing to discuss our concerns, and
>>> preliminary feedback on the issue mostly agrees that we
>> should find a plan
>>> that takes into account the real cost of production and the
>> impact to a
>>> consumer's personal finances.  We do not know if the answer
>> lies in lower
>>> prices, payment plans or philanthropic programs to help
>> offset the cost of
>>> this technology, but we will not find answers if we do not
>> hear from you.
>>>
>>> If you are interested in participating in a working group,
>> please e-mail
>>> me
>>> at:
>>>
>>> jsorozco at gmail.com
>>>
>>> Thank you in advance,
>>>
>>> Joe Orozco
>>>
>>> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
>>> crowd."--Max Lucado
>>>
>>>
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