[nfbcs] Adaptive Technology and Your Pocketbook
Joe Orozco
jsorozco at gmail.com
Fri Feb 5 17:07:19 UTC 2010
John,
Let's not play the victim card here. You're too intelligent for that. As
far as open minds go, I dare say you have completely balked at my idea
before it can even be called a fledgling, but let me try to address your
points again. I do hope you will respond, because your feedback is what
could make this effort stronger.
To your first point, the fact that there are free and low cost screen
reading solutions does not prove that prices for other products are not
artificially high. It means other companies responded to the problem of
people unable to afford the leading products on the market. These products
are new. They do not offer the wide range of accessibility of other
products, but to me this is slightly irrelevant. If I'm understanding your
logic correctly, people do not have to pay for JAWS if they don't want to,
but I'm interested in the reverse side of this argument. What happens with
the people who do want JAWS? I'm no socialist in favor of absolute equality
across the board. People ought to make sacrifices if they want better
products, but it is my belief, one shared by many others, that the current
price levels do not even make sacrifices worth it because the amount is not
even in the ballpark of what they could afford.
Now, I only cite JAWS because GW Micro has at least implemented a payment
plan for customers to lease a copy of Window Eyes. If one leading company
has done it, why hasn't Freedom Scientific? This, after all, goes back to
your own argument of competition. All of this might very well be resolved
if companies exercised similar payment plan practices. In this scenario
companies would not lose any money. In fact, the argument could be made
that companies would make a little more money. No one has decided what the
solution of our efforts should be. Quit jumping to the conclusion that our
sole aim is to force companies to lower prices at the risk of negatively
impacting development and production.
Secondly, I cannot yet answer the question of leverage because I do not yet
fully understand the problem. Part of what my group has already begun doing
is collecting data of how the current market affects everyone from companies
to government agencies to the training instructors who deal with customers
long after the product has been purchased and finally to the consumers who
ultimately rely on the products to stay employed. We should try to get a
sense of how much it costs to develop a single notetaker. We really should
talk to companies about universal acceptance of payment plans. We should
set up an authoritative source where customer reviews can be collected of
products the way other websites routinely evaluate mainstream products. I
know that we ought to help the NFB with the promotion of the technology bill
of rights legislation, because ultimately the ideal solution would be for
mainstream products to follow the lead of Apple, Olympus and other
manufacturers. If all else fails, perhaps we should pool our resources to
help raise money to help those professionals who would otherwise be unable
to afford technology they need. I'm already leading development and
fundraising efforts for a national consumer protection group, who has also
pledged its support to use its advocacy network to help mobilize support for
the NFB legislation.
The point is, I am still learning how to best address the issue. How I came
to be interested in the issue at all is nothing more inspiring than a long
list of people on multiple lists complaining of how they cannot afford what
they need to do well in school and work, but to me, that's inspiring enough.
I'm no hero. I can't very well be that when I clearly do not have all the
answers, but you know, enough people have responded who are interested in
studying the issue and figuring out a way to make things better.
I hope despite our differences you too will consider lending your talents.
If I'm wrong, I suppose I'll look like an enormous idiot. If I do wind up
looking like an ass, it won't be on account of lack of hard work and a lot
of creativity.
Best,
Joe Orozco
"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
crowd."--Max Lucado
-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G. Heim
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 10:06 AM
To: NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Adaptive Technology and Your Pocketbook
Joe,
Its totally inappropriate for you to attack me personally. All
I did was ask
questions. If you're not interested in opposing points of view,
you should
have said so right up front. It's obvious that you are bound
and determined
to continue on the course you've already settled on in spite of
what anyone
says.
Well, anyway, back to the facts. I have 2 points to make which
you still
have not addressed.
1. What evidence do you have to believe that prices for accessible
technologies are artificially high. That prices are high is not
evidence
that they are *artificially* high. There is a considerable amount of
evidence that prices are not artificially high much of which
I've already
mentioned. There is at least one totally free commercial screen reader
available for Windows, system access. There is another free commercial
screen reader available for Mac OS. And there are several free
open source
screen readers. At least in the area of screen readers, there
is absolutely
a great deal of price competition. It stands to reason that the
competition
over flows into other areas. GW Micro even has a price/performance
comparison chart for note takers on its web site. Now, in spite
of all this
evidence, you continue to insist that prices are artificially
high. But why?
2. What do you think a campaign can accomplish that competition
cannot? Even
if your assertion that competition is ineffective, and I don't
believe it
is, what do you think a campaign will do? This is not an idle
question. I
would like to know how you're going to approach the problem. It seems
unlikely that if accessibility technology manufacturers are deliberatly
inflating prices, they they'll lower them just because you ask. I mean,
Freedom Scientific is not going to say, "Huh, all this time we
thought blind
people liked paying $6000 for a note taker. Okay, the price is
now $600."
If you ask me why should accessible technology companies lower
their price
regardless of competition, I'll point out that I asked you
first. If they're
not going to lower it for competition sake, why should they
lower it for
you?
In other words ,I would like to know what kind of leverage you
are planning
to bring to bear in your campaign. That's a fair question.
PS: Feel free to ignore my questions. I may kill this entire
thread anyway.
I'm not interested in arguing with someone who has already made
up their
mind anyway.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Adaptive Technology and Your Pocketbook
> John,
>
> You're quite the little ray of sunshine, aren't you?
>
> Competition is not the answer, because as long as there is a
small group
> of
> players, neither one will blink and drop prices to get more
customers.
> Why
> should a company drop prices if they can get away with
staying in the same
> general neighborhood as the others? This is not exactly a phenomenon
> limited to the blindness market. It's simple enterprise.
>
> Freedom Scientific is not losing customers to Apple, because
the PC is
> still
> dominant. People have certainly migrated to the Mac, and there are
> benefits
> to purchasing a computer that comes talking out of the box. Yet, the
> average consumer will be hard pressed to learn a new
operating system for
> the sake of a built-in screen reader that is still growing and whose
> overall
> platform is still inferior to the compatibility of the PC. I'm not
> bashing
> Apple. On the contrary, I applaud their work, but don't
allow your own
> computer preferences to make you assume your views are shared by the
> majority of consumers, blind or sighted.
>
> And, no, I think that while some people will move over to
less expensive
> options like NVDA, people ultimately know that the
accessibility of these
> choices does not rival the accessibility of JAWS and Window
Eyes. Talk to
> David Andrews who pointed out that the introduction of these
products can
> actually hurt the adaptive industry.
>
> I'm not looking for a JAWS alternative. I don't care for the price
> associated with purchasing new upgrades, but for now it's
what I have to
> pay
> to get the accessibility I need. Yet, you assume this is a
self-motivated
> campaign designed to air out my own grievances. Believe it
or not, I care
> about people without the means to buy their own technology.
In today's
> economy there's no telling when I find myself in the same
position to be
> unable to buy what I need to get by.
>
> It's not a matter of ethics when you compare the cost of a mainstream
> product to the astronomical cost of an adaptive one. I think
this is the
> strategy of an informed consumer. Voting with my dollars
will hardly put
> a
> dent in what is already at least a $30 million sales
operation in the case
> of Freedom Scientific, according to public records, and that's only an
> estimate. WAFRA Partners only purchases companies that
generate a minimum
> revenue of $20 million. That too is public record. I could
be stupid and
> assume my refusing to pay $260 for a JAWS upgrade will make
them shake
> their
> heads and think, "wow, you know, maybe I should bring down prices."
> Seriously, don't be delusional.
>
> And, don't be a naysayer. You have no idea how the campaign
will evolve.
> If people don't step up to the plate, it won't even happen, because
> ultimately I am only interested in helping people who want to
try to help
> themselves. You don't even know how the companies will
respond, because
> until there is reason to believe otherwise, we can only hope
that what is
> achieved is a true compromise that does not deprive companies
of the funds
> necessary to step up development and does not bar consumers
from taking
> advantage of all the technology. What you do know is that whatever
> benefits
> are achieved from our little group of diverse professionals
are also going
> to benefit you. Don't sit there and throw up objections to
something good
> that could happen without your raising a finger.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
> crowd."--Max Lucado
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G. Heim
> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 5:55 PM
> To: NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Adaptive Technology and Your Pocketbook
>
> I can't figure out what you think a campaign can do that
> competition isn't
> already doing.
>
> Don't you think that Freedom Scientific knows its losing
> customers to Apple
> and voiceover? Not to mention nvda, orca, and system access?
> Don't you think
> FS, GW Micro, and Humanware are already doing as much as they
> can to keep
> their prices low in order to sell more products than their
> competitors? I
> really think that if you went to FS and said that you'd really
> like them to
> lower the price of the Pac Mate, they'd say that they only wish
> they could
> so that they could out sell GWM and Humanware.
>
> I mean, if you don't like Freedom Scientific's pricing structure, buy
> Window-eyes instead. Or buy a Mac and use voiceOver. That's
> what I did. In
> fact, I told FS that. I actually called the sales number at FS,
> asked how
> much it would cost to upgrade jaws and when they said like a
> million dollars
> (whatever) I told them that I was going to buy a Macintosh. And
> I did. I'm
> still using an old version of jaws at work but I will probably
> never buy
> another jaws license.
>
> Anyway, I just don't see what a campaign can do that voting with your
> dollars can't do much better.
>
> Besides, I think its unethical to accuse a company of gouging
> its customers
> without evidence. ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>; "'NFB
Webmaster's
> List'" <nfb-web at nfbnet.org>; "'Discussion list for
> NABS,National Alliance of
> Blind Students.'" <nabs at acb.org>; "'The PAC Mate User List'"
> <pmlist at pacmategear.com>; <gw-notetaker at gwmicro.com>; "'Braillenote'"
> <braillenote at list.humanware.com>; "'nfb-texas members'"
> <members at nfb-texas.org>; <ATCNFB at yahoogroups.com>; "'Arizona
Students'"
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> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 2:21 PM
> Subject: [nfbcs] Adaptive Technology and Your Pocketbook
>
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Over the past couple days I have engaged a discussion on
several lists
>> concerning the price of adaptive technology. There are
> varying views on
>> whether or not these prices are fair, and there appears to be
> interest in
>> creating a campaign to address the issue. If you are interested in
>> lending
>> your views or your support, please e-mail me at the address
> below. This
>> would be preferable to a prolonged discussion across multiple lists.
>> Please
>> e-mail anyone you feel would be interested in participating,
> and please
>> especially help us find representatives from the leading adaptive
>> technology
>> companies. We are not interested in creating a landscape of
> corporations
>> versus consumers. At this time there is no evidence
> suggesting adaptive
>> technology companies are not willing to discuss our concerns, and
>> preliminary feedback on the issue mostly agrees that we
> should find a plan
>> that takes into account the real cost of production and the
> impact to a
>> consumer's personal finances. We do not know if the answer
> lies in lower
>> prices, payment plans or philanthropic programs to help
> offset the cost of
>> this technology, but we will not find answers if we do not
> hear from you.
>>
>> If you are interested in participating in a working group,
> please e-mail
>> me
>> at:
>>
>> jsorozco at gmail.com
>>
>> Thank you in advance,
>>
>> Joe Orozco
>>
>> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
>> crowd."--Max Lucado
>>
>>
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