[nfbcs] Should JAWS be used for web accessibility testing (was Re: Opinions?)

Sun Feb 19 20:15:38 UTC 2012

Oh, this is very interesting.  Thank you Mike for articulating the
other side of this.

I'd like to quote and then respond two items from your message.

First Quote:
"I think the only way to do this right would be to specify that *every* site
should be put through a suite of tests by *human* *beings,* not automated
tools, using the following screen-readers at a minimum: JAWS, Window-eyes,
Hal, SuperNova, System Access, NVDA, Coco (sp) and VoiceOver (both on
i-devices and on the Mac). It's a matter for debate whether or not one
should specify note-takers such as the BrailleSense and BrailleNote family
also to be tested."

Ignoring for the moment the word "every" in your statement above,
let's think about large companies that want to test accessibility,
such as Google, Yahoo, and Facebook.

You're proposing that these companies stage human run usability tests
on *each* new or changed product using 8 to 10 different AT solutions.

As a comparison, none of the companies I mention above would
consider doing this amount of mainstream usability testing against 
different web browsers.  I believe that this is way to high a bar for
us to expect any web site developer to meet

Instead, we should pick a model screen reader, and begin to insist
that it be used in *all* AT usability testing.  That screen reader
could then be given the responsibility of reporting out problems they
encounter for which there is no documented solution.  This puts that
company in the drivers seat for finding a solution.

For this to work, we need a screen reader whose development is not
financed by direct sales.

As to the word "every", I don't think you really mean every web site
developer.  If I develop a photo sharing site for my family to use,
say www.barboursphotos.com, this probably should not have to pass the
accessibility test.

The question about who should be obliged to pass any accessibility
tests is a sticky one.

And, your second quote

"In fact, I think the article's author is desperately trying to find a way to
lessen work for himself or, put another way, he is hoping he can be lazy and
not do the sort of in-depth testing that is truly required for good
accessibility testing."

So, of course he is.  He's trying to minimize the amount of effort
needed to make his web sites accessible.  This is reasonable and makes
perfect sense to me.  Why wouldn't you expect any developer of any
product to increase their efficiency?

Jim

On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 08:49:22PM -0800, Mike Freeman wrote:
> Jim:
> 
> I respectfully, but strongly, disagree. Although I argue in another message
> that there's no good way to include or exclude a particular screen-reader
> from accessibility or usability tests, I also think that excluding a
> particular screen-reader amounts to a value judgment even if it is not
> intended as such. Consider how irked Window-eyes users get when everyone
> tests their sites against JAWS. Why should JAWS users put up with the same
> sort of nonsense?
> 
> In fact, I think the article's author is desperately trying to find a way to
> lessen work for himself or, put another way, he is hoping he can be lazy and
> not do the sort of in-depth testing that is truly required for good
> accessibility testing.
> 
> I think the only way to do this right would be to specify that *every* site
> should be put through a suite of tests by *human* *beings,* not automated
> tools, using the following screen-readers at a minimum: JAWS, Window-eyes,
> Hal, SuperNova, System Access, NVDA, Coco (sp) and VoiceOver (both on
> i-devices and on the Mac). It's a matter for debate whether or not one
> should specify note-takers such as the BrailleSense and BrailleNote family
> also to be tested.
> 
> The only alternative I can see would be to try to get all screen-readers to
> behave the same way and, my friends, that ain't a-gonna happen! (grin)
> 
> Mike Freeman
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Jim Barbour
> Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 8:21 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Cc: NABS-L
> Subject: [nfbcs] Should JAWS be used for web accessibility testing (was Re:
> Opinions?)
> 
> I am in 100% agreement with the statement that JAWS should not be used
> for web site testing.  However, my reasons differ from the ones
> written in the article.
> 
> It is not possible today to design and build accessible websites
> without performing usability tests.  Further, there are too many
> access technologies to test with them all.  So, the question is which
> AT should be used to test, and therefore drive improvements to, web
> site accessibility?  Whichever one gets chosen will have the
> opportunity to informally set standards around how certain types of
> content will be handled.
> 
> Given this, I think JAWS is not the right answer.   Perhaps NVDA or
> SA to go or some other screen reader I'm not aware of could step in?
> 
> Jim
> 
> On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 07:21:31PM -0800, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote:
> > When doing some research for a project, I found the following article.
> What do people think?
> >
> http://clearhelper.wordpress.com/2010/03/16/stop-using-jaws-for-web-accessib
> ility-testing/
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