[nfbcs] Accessibility (was: BMC Remedy web-based client)

Steve Jacobson steve.jacobson at visi.com
Wed Jan 18 15:35:31 UTC 2012 

This is a meaningful dialog and it is too important to have it get bogged down in personality clashes.  
John, Gabe is too direct for my tastes, but I think he was pretty much expressing the same viewpoint as 
I tried to express in a different way.  We probably all need to check the thickness of our skins.  
Please let's not go down this road.  John, I personally appreciate your background and insights into 
some of this.  However, Gabe also has experience that I don't have so I'll try to work through his 
directness to get the information he conveys.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson


On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:19:18 -0600, John Heim wrote:

>Gave, your opinion is no more valuable than mine.  I have 30 years of 
>experience as a developer and I know for a fact that most users prefer apps 
>that work over ones that look pretty.

>If you can't discuss this without being insulting, you should shut up.

>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Gabe Vega" <theblindtech at gmail.com>
>To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 9:12 AM
>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessibility (was: BMC Remedy web-based client)


>>I pitty your false sense of reality on your view on accessible apps. it 
>>just doesn't work that way in the sighted world.
>> Gabe Vega - Sent from my Apple Mac Mini
>> Hit me up Voice/Text: (623) 565-9357
>> Email: theblindtech at gmail.com
>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/blindtech
>> FaceBook: http://facebook.com/blindtech
>> Website: http://thebt.net
>>
>> On Jan 18, 2012, at 7:36 AM, John Heim wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know... It seems to me that the best software is almost always 
>>> also the most accessible. Most users don't really like all the fancy 
>>> graphics and junk that a lot of developers put into their software. There 
>>> used to be an IBM commercial where two guys were sitting behind a 
>>> computer and one guy, clearly supposed to be a developer, says to his 
>>> boss, "We have our flaming rotating logo on the web site now." The boss 
>>> says, "Wow cool. Now if you could tie this in with the inventory and 
>>> accounts payable, we'd really have something." And the nerd says, "I 
>>> don't know how to do that."  I found that commercial very realistic.
>>>
>>> BTW, here is a link to an accessible ISO recorder:
>>> http://alexfeinman.com/isorecorder.htm
>>>
>>> Now, that piece of software is simple, easy to use, works great and is 
>>> 100% accessible. Why can't all software be like that?
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" 
>>> <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 9:16 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] BMC Remedy web-based client
>>>
>>>
>>>> Gary and John,
>>>>
>>>> While I agree with both of you, I'm starting to get an uneasy feeling 
>>>> that part of our problem is that making things accessible is difficult 
>>>> and is made more
>>>> difficult by the lagging behind of screen readers.  MouseOvers, which 
>>>> are what I gather is used a lot in Remedy, cannot be handled easily by 
>>>> screen
>>>> readers because they largely use a static representation of a web page, 
>>>> the same one they have been using for probably more than a decade.  I
>>>> understand that they probably just don't have the resources given all of 
>>>> the other changes that have come about such as Windows Vist and Windows 
>>>> 7
>>>> and the constant updating of Office to mention just a few.  Still, we 
>>>> are not likely going to get the industry to wait until screen readers 
>>>> can catch up before
>>>> using a given technology.  There will be a lot of resistance to 
>>>> accessibility requirements as long as we see that kind of lag.  On the 
>>>> other hand, some of
>>>> our accessibility problems are coming from cross-platform development 
>>>> approaches and we need some help there.  The shakers and movers behind 
>>>> JAVA
>>>> have been talking about accessibilityy for fifteen years, and I dare say 
>>>> that accessible JAVA apps are still very rare.  That is ridiculous. 
>>>> Screen readers
>>>> probably play a role here, too, but where do they get the money to pay 
>>>> their developers to make there products even work better with the 
>>>> Windows
>>>> Access Bridge and also to completely revamp their web interfaces?  Our 
>>>> best bet is to squeeze the markets of software that is not accessible as 
>>>> John
>>>> suggests and try to make accessibility something we should expect, but 
>>>> something has to be done to make it less complicated to the average 
>>>> developer.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:24:27 -0600, John Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't think there is any law in the USA that says that software has 
>>>>> to be
>>>>> accessible.  There is a law called the Rehab Act that says that 
>>>>> agencies of
>>>>> the government of the United States can't buy inaccessible software if 
>>>>> there
>>>>> is an accessible alternative. I think it was the Rehab Act that the NFB 
>>>>> used
>>>>> to get several universities to stop their plans to buy their students 
>>>>> kindle
>>>>> book readers.  There is also a law that says that consumer 
>>>>> communications
>>>>> equipment has to be made accessible. That is the
>>>>> Twenty-First Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act. Then 
>>>>> there
>>>>> is the ADA which the Justice Department recently said applies to web 
>>>>> sites.
>>>>> But like VMWare or Microsoft Word... I don't think there is any law 
>>>>> covering
>>>>> software like that. I doubt it would be illegal for a company to buy an
>>>>> inacccessible software package and then fire a blind person for not 
>>>>> being
>>>>> able to use it.   The company could argue that using the software is an
>>>>> essential part of the job. They could say that a blind person simply 
>>>>> cannot
>>>>> do the job. Nobody wants a blind airline pilot for example. If there is 
>>>>> a
>>>>> screen reader that would allow you to use the software, they'd have to 
>>>>> buy
>>>>> you that. But if no screen reader could work with their software, I 
>>>>> believe
>>>>> they could show you the door.
>>>>
>>>>> The greatest hope for progress on accessible software is for us to put 
>>>>> some
>>>>> teeth into the Rehab Act. The success of the Kindle suit shows how well 
>>>>> that
>>>>> can work. If government agencies like colleges and universities, most 
>>>>> of
>>>>> which take funding from the federal government, cannot buy a software
>>>>> product because its inaccessible, then companies would be highly 
>>>>> motivated
>>>>> to make their products accessible.  In fact, I believe this is the 
>>>>> reason
>>>>> VoiceOver exists. Apple didn't write VoiceOver out of the goodness of 
>>>>> their
>>>>> collective heart. No, they wrote it so they could continue to sell 
>>>>> computers
>>>>> to colleges and universities.
>>>>
>>>>> The NFB has really taken some major steps in this direction in the last
>>>>> couple of years with the Kindle lawsuit and the one against Penn State
>>>>> University. Any university in this country is as guilty as Penn State. 
>>>>> If we
>>>>> can light a fire under university administrators, software developers 
>>>>> will
>>>>> sit up and take notice. They don't want to be locked out of the 
>>>>> academic
>>>>> market.
>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracy Carcione" 
>>>>> <carcione at access.net>
>>>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:20 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] BMC Remedy web-based client
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Gary.
>>>>>> I wish your answer surprised me.  I'm pretty damn tired of 
>>>>>> accessibility
>>>>>> being regarded as "something nice to do."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So what was the outcome for you?
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My experience comes from 18 months ago and it was bad. I inquired of 
>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>> companies about their interest in scripting a solution. They were 
>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> enthusiastic. I pushed my company to apply pressure to BMC. They too 
>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>> less than enthusiastic, viewing accessibility as a nice thing to do
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> than complying with the law.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It may be that in your job this is not a necessity, but in mine it 
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>> more substantial. It is the way I got assignments, the way I reported
>>>>>>> progress on them, the way I tracked time, and the way I was 
>>>>>>> evaluated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>> Of Tracy Carcione
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:24 AM
>>>>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] BMC Remedy web-based client
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is anyone using the BMC Remedy web-based client?
>>>>>>> We just moved to it.  The old PC-installed client was difficult, but
>>>>>>> useable.  The web-based client has links and looks accessible, but I 
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> so far been unable to open any of the sub-menus under Change 
>>>>>>> Management,
>>>>>>> for example, "Group Manager", or "Assign To".
>>>>>>> I asked my sighted co-worker, and he "hovered" the mouse over the 
>>>>>>> link,
>>>>>>> but I didn't see what he saw, and I don't know how to "hover the 
>>>>>>> mouse"
>>>>>>> with Jaws.  I tried the left click, the right click, the Applications
>>>>>>> key,
>>>>>>> and just hitting enter on what looked like a link, but, if a menu
>>>>>>> appeared, it wasn't anywhere near where I was.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I thought the web-based Remedy would be an improvement, but I may not 
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> able to do this part of my job anymore.  It's not a vital part, but 
>>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>> annoying for all concerned.
>>>>>>> If anyone has any experience with this thing, I could sure use some
>>>>>>> advice.
>>>>>>> TIA.
>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
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