[nfbcs] Accessibility (was: BMC Remedy web-based client)

Gabe Vega theblindtech at gmail.com
Wed Jan 18 16:03:09 UTC 2012 

Thanks Steve. That was a great assessment. I know sometimes I can be
very direct, in which sometimes my words and misconstrued. But again
thank you for your viewpoints I really appreciate it. :-)

Gabe Vega
Sent from my iPhone
(623) 565-9357

On Jan 18, 2012, at 9:00 AM, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:

> This is a meaningful dialog and it is too important to have it get bogged down in personality clashes.
> John, Gabe is too direct for my tastes, but I think he was pretty much expressing the same viewpoint as
> I tried to express in a different way.  We probably all need to check the thickness of our skins.
> Please let's not go down this road.  John, I personally appreciate your background and insights into
> some of this.  However, Gabe also has experience that I don't have so I'll try to work through his
> directness to get the information he conveys.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
>
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:19:18 -0600, John Heim wrote:
>
>> Gave, your opinion is no more valuable than mine.  I have 30 years of
>> experience as a developer and I know for a fact that most users prefer apps
>> that work over ones that look pretty.
>
>> If you can't discuss this without being insulting, you should shut up.
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Gabe Vega" <theblindtech at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 9:12 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessibility (was: BMC Remedy web-based client)
>
>
>>> I pitty your false sense of reality on your view on accessible apps. it
>>> just doesn't work that way in the sighted world.
>>> Gabe Vega - Sent from my Apple Mac Mini
>>> Hit me up Voice/Text: (623) 565-9357
>>> Email: theblindtech at gmail.com
>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/blindtech
>>> FaceBook: http://facebook.com/blindtech
>>> Website: http://thebt.net
>>>
>>> On Jan 18, 2012, at 7:36 AM, John Heim wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't know... It seems to me that the best software is almost always
>>>> also the most accessible. Most users don't really like all the fancy
>>>> graphics and junk that a lot of developers put into their software. There
>>>> used to be an IBM commercial where two guys were sitting behind a
>>>> computer and one guy, clearly supposed to be a developer, says to his
>>>> boss, "We have our flaming rotating logo on the web site now." The boss
>>>> says, "Wow cool. Now if you could tie this in with the inventory and
>>>> accounts payable, we'd really have something." And the nerd says, "I
>>>> don't know how to do that."  I found that commercial very realistic.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, here is a link to an accessible ISO recorder:
>>>> http://alexfeinman.com/isorecorder.htm
>>>>
>>>> Now, that piece of software is simple, easy to use, works great and is
>>>> 100% accessible. Why can't all software be like that?
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson"
>>>> <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 9:16 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] BMC Remedy web-based client
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Gary and John,
>>>>>
>>>>> While I agree with both of you, I'm starting to get an uneasy feeling
>>>>> that part of our problem is that making things accessible is difficult
>>>>> and is made more
>>>>> difficult by the lagging behind of screen readers.  MouseOvers, which
>>>>> are what I gather is used a lot in Remedy, cannot be handled easily by
>>>>> screen
>>>>> readers because they largely use a static representation of a web page,
>>>>> the same one they have been using for probably more than a decade.  I
>>>>> understand that they probably just don't have the resources given all of
>>>>> the other changes that have come about such as Windows Vist and Windows
>>>>> 7
>>>>> and the constant updating of Office to mention just a few.  Still, we
>>>>> are not likely going to get the industry to wait until screen readers
>>>>> can catch up before
>>>>> using a given technology.  There will be a lot of resistance to
>>>>> accessibility requirements as long as we see that kind of lag.  On the
>>>>> other hand, some of
>>>>> our accessibility problems are coming from cross-platform development
>>>>> approaches and we need some help there.  The shakers and movers behind
>>>>> JAVA
>>>>> have been talking about accessibilityy for fifteen years, and I dare say
>>>>> that accessible JAVA apps are still very rare.  That is ridiculous.
>>>>> Screen readers
>>>>> probably play a role here, too, but where do they get the money to pay
>>>>> their developers to make there products even work better with the
>>>>> Windows
>>>>> Access Bridge and also to completely revamp their web interfaces?  Our
>>>>> best bet is to squeeze the markets of software that is not accessible as
>>>>> John
>>>>> suggests and try to make accessibility something we should expect, but
>>>>> something has to be done to make it less complicated to the average
>>>>> developer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:24:27 -0600, John Heim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think there is any law in the USA that says that software has
>>>>>> to be
>>>>>> accessible.  There is a law called the Rehab Act that says that
>>>>>> agencies of
>>>>>> the government of the United States can't buy inaccessible software if
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> is an accessible alternative. I think it was the Rehab Act that the NFB
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> to get several universities to stop their plans to buy their students
>>>>>> kindle
>>>>>> book readers.  There is also a law that says that consumer
>>>>>> communications
>>>>>> equipment has to be made accessible. That is the
>>>>>> Twenty-First Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act. Then
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> is the ADA which the Justice Department recently said applies to web
>>>>>> sites.
>>>>>> But like VMWare or Microsoft Word... I don't think there is any law
>>>>>> covering
>>>>>> software like that. I doubt it would be illegal for a company to buy an
>>>>>> inacccessible software package and then fire a blind person for not
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> able to use it.   The company could argue that using the software is an
>>>>>> essential part of the job. They could say that a blind person simply
>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>> do the job. Nobody wants a blind airline pilot for example. If there is
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> screen reader that would allow you to use the software, they'd have to
>>>>>> buy
>>>>>> you that. But if no screen reader could work with their software, I
>>>>>> believe
>>>>>> they could show you the door.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The greatest hope for progress on accessible software is for us to put
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> teeth into the Rehab Act. The success of the Kindle suit shows how well
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> can work. If government agencies like colleges and universities, most
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> which take funding from the federal government, cannot buy a software
>>>>>> product because its inaccessible, then companies would be highly
>>>>>> motivated
>>>>>> to make their products accessible.  In fact, I believe this is the
>>>>>> reason
>>>>>> VoiceOver exists. Apple didn't write VoiceOver out of the goodness of
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> collective heart. No, they wrote it so they could continue to sell
>>>>>> computers
>>>>>> to colleges and universities.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The NFB has really taken some major steps in this direction in the last
>>>>>> couple of years with the Kindle lawsuit and the one against Penn State
>>>>>> University. Any university in this country is as guilty as Penn State.
>>>>>> If we
>>>>>> can light a fire under university administrators, software developers
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> sit up and take notice. They don't want to be locked out of the
>>>>>> academic
>>>>>> market.
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracy Carcione"
>>>>>> <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:20 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] BMC Remedy web-based client
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Gary.
>>>>>>> I wish your answer surprised me.  I'm pretty damn tired of
>>>>>>> accessibility
>>>>>>> being regarded as "something nice to do."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So what was the outcome for you?
>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My experience comes from 18 months ago and it was bad. I inquired of
>>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>>> companies about their interest in scripting a solution. They were
>>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> enthusiastic. I pushed my company to apply pressure to BMC. They too
>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>> less than enthusiastic, viewing accessibility as a nice thing to do
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> than complying with the law.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It may be that in your job this is not a necessity, but in mine it
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>> more substantial. It is the way I got assignments, the way I reported
>>>>>>>> progress on them, the way I tracked time, and the way I was
>>>>>>>> evaluated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of Tracy Carcione
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:24 AM
>>>>>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] BMC Remedy web-based client
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is anyone using the BMC Remedy web-based client?
>>>>>>>> We just moved to it.  The old PC-installed client was difficult, but
>>>>>>>> useable.  The web-based client has links and looks accessible, but I
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> so far been unable to open any of the sub-menus under Change
>>>>>>>> Management,
>>>>>>>> for example, "Group Manager", or "Assign To".
>>>>>>>> I asked my sighted co-worker, and he "hovered" the mouse over the
>>>>>>>> link,
>>>>>>>> but I didn't see what he saw, and I don't know how to "hover the
>>>>>>>> mouse"
>>>>>>>> with Jaws.  I tried the left click, the right click, the Applications
>>>>>>>> key,
>>>>>>>> and just hitting enter on what looked like a link, but, if a menu
>>>>>>>> appeared, it wasn't anywhere near where I was.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I thought the web-based Remedy would be an improvement, but I may not
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> able to do this part of my job anymore.  It's not a vital part, but
>>>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>>> annoying for all concerned.
>>>>>>>> If anyone has any experience with this thing, I could sure use some
>>>>>>>> advice.
>>>>>>>> TIA.
>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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