[nfbcs] Career Advice
John G. Heim
jheim at math.wisc.edu
Fri Oct 12 15:07:33 UTC 2012
I don't know if you meant it the way it sounds but I don't think you have to
be a hotshot to program in java or python.
I was once in a job interview and they asked me which programming languages
I knew. I said I know all of them. Give me a week with any programming
language and I'll be an expert in it. Maybe not the ultimate expert but an
expert none the less. I got the job and they said it was that answer more
than any other that got me the job.
IMO, it's important to look upon the challenge of learning something new as
an opportunity. Think of how much more valuable you'll be to your company
once you've learned that new programming language or operating system. Think
of how proud you'll be of yourself for having succeeded at something that
even sighted people struggle with. IMO, it's no different from blindness
itself. It kinda sucks but the only thing to do is to attack the challenge.
In fact, I'd say that's one way we blind people have the advantage. We know
how to overcome challenges.
PS: I'm willing to admit that what I say above might not be literally true.
For example, it may have taken me a little more than a week to become an
expert in java programming. That might even have taken 2 weeks. :-).
-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 10:15 PM
To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
I concur completely with Steve's observations below. These days, in a
business or even government environment, less and less traditional
programming is being done and more and more what programming there is is
contracted out. Moreover, as Steve says, increasingly, businesses and
government are buying off-the-shelf software packages (some of which are
screen-reader-accessible and some of which are not). A few hot-shot blind
programmers are going into environments such as C# and java and more are
working in interpretive languages such as Pithon. But, as Steve says, a
number of us are going into other arenas such as network administration.
Over the past few years, my government agency has gone from a HP OpenVMS
environment to a windows environment (alas, I wish my agency had chosen
UNIX) and so I'm having to come up to speed rather quickly to become an
administrator of Windows Server ® 2008 R2 systems. When I began my
employment 33 years ago, I was actually doing systems programming in
assembly language and if we wanted data brought into our computer systems,
we wrote the routines directly to do this including the drivers for the
hardware that handled the data. No more. As Steve says, we have a lot of SQL
and other packages running on servers running essentially what is Windows 7
on steroids -- Windows Server® 2008 R2.
I'm not sure I'd advise programming as a good entry-level job path today
either. But those who find it fascinating *can* find jobs. But the
environment is much more competitive and fast-paced than it once was and
many tasks these days are more one-off and less are continuing maintenance
of existing tasks, at least in my shop.
And all this is complicated by the almost paranoid interest in security
these days. It often just about takes an act of Congress to get a
screen-reader on one's work station now, for example. This may just be an
artifact of the electric power system (where I work) but I suspect it goes
further than this. I remember some time this year when one fellow was trying
to figure out how to hook up his laptop with all his specialized
blind-friendly programming tools on secure corporate networks where such
connectivity is basically forbidden. I have somewhat the same problem in
that I can't hook up my BrailleSensePLUS to my workstation without violating
policies.
So the environment isn't as straightforward as it once was.
And I, too, take extra time and seldom put in for comp time even though I'm
allowed to. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.
Mike Freeman
-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 12:12 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
Generally I would agree with both of you, too, but what I would say for my
two cents is that I don't know that I would start out now as a programmer if
I was looking to work for a company. Certainly there are still programming
jobs, but there are not the jobs there used to be. It is much, much more
common now for companies to buy software that they can use to perform many
of the functions they used to accomplish with in-house systems that were
designed and written by their programmers and analysts. When companies need
to have programming done, it is far more common now to contract it out or
even outsource it to off-shore locations.
However, there is a lot of need yet for people who are skilled in database
design and knowing how to work with databases which includes a thorough
knowledge of SQL. SQL isn't programming but is rewarding and challenging in
its own way. There is quite a bit being done with networking, too, and
there are some blind people who are involved with network administration.
Of course, if one is thinking of developing software and wants to write it
some themselves, a programming language is very important. Also, if one has
his or her eyes on a specific area where programming is common, learning a
programming language is still a good idea. I also think there is value to
be gained by learning a programming language and writing something just to
get a sense of what is necessary. I wonder, though, what the success rate
is for blind persons or anyone for that matter, going to school to learn a
programming language and then getting a good job. I am in a position where
I work that occasionally has me looking at a COBOL program to see what is
wrong with it. We still run a good bit of COBOL here, but the maintenance
of COBOL is contracted out. My value to my company, probably more than
programming, is my in depth knowledge of how the business processes relate
to our computer systems. That has allowed me to take that expertise and
bring it with me as I changed to a different computer platform, working
primarily with databases. Like John, I anticipated where the need would be
and felt I could do all right in the SQL environment and found reasons to
learn quite a bit about that, some on my own time, so when there was a push
in that direction, I had at least some of the tools I needed. For someone
just starting out in this field, it is very important to look at the entire
field, get some idea of what is interesting and also what fits ones
strengths. One also needs to look at what one can do for a long enough time
to get some understanding of how a given employer does business even if it
isn't ideal, knowing one might be able to move into something they like
better having gained that experience.
Fifteen years ago, I would never have believed what a mixed bag
accessibility still is. Unfortunately, there are going to be companies who
are using tools that are inaccessible enough to make working for that
company a loosing bet. I still maintain a hope that things will continue to
improve, but it can still be a factor. Sometimes it is clearly the
developers of software who are to blame, but some of the problem is that
screen reader developers just don't have time to implement newer
technologies that could be accessible because they are so busy chasing the
development of the latest operating systems. I don't know the answer to
that particular problem. Anyway, there are probably no exact answers, but
hopefully our responses provide some useful food for thought.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 13:21:39 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>I pretty much agree with everything you say below although I might not
>paint quite such a dark picture. But, yeah, I feel I've
been successful in my career by working harder than everybody else, putting
in extra time to make up for being slower than the sighted guys, and doing a
lot of research on my own time.
>I also agree with the point about keeping your skills up. There is this
>phenomenon I call "backwatering". New technologies tend
to be inaccessible so a blind technologist doesn't get the assignment of
working with them. Slowly, he becomes less and less crucial to his company
because he's working with old technology. Then when layoffs come around,
he's the one to go. And in some ways, that's only fair. After all, he is the
least important member of the team.
>IMO, its important to be very aggressive in pursuing new technologies.
>I taught myself on my own time almost all the skills I use
in my current job. I am sure there are jobs where that isn't necessary but
they are few and far between. Also, to some degree it depends on what you
want out of your career. I work for the University of Wisconsin and they
don't layoff people very often. But a few years ago, I went to my boss and
said I thought my skills were being wasted and that I could do a lot more,
he said, "What's your problem? You're still getting paid, aren't you?" But I
wasn't satisfied just pulling down a paycheck. Plus, I figured that
eventually they'd get around to getting rid of me. So I switched jobs and
got into a different department.
>----Original Message-----
>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>majolls at cox.net
>Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:31 AM
>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>Cc: Tracy Carcione
>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>Working in the computer field is a challenging experience, especially
>for a
blind person (well partially sighted in my case).
Here are some things to consider:
>Know your craft thoroughly. Be as prepared with your programming
>languages as you possibly can be. Corporations are looking for
people that can solve a problem quickly and who know where to go look when
they donâ¬"t know the answers. Therefore, you need to
be as knowledgeable as you possibly can be in whatever programming languages
you decide to work in.
> Know your weaknesses and have solutions in place before you go get the
> job. Itâ¬"s a competitive environment out there and the
people that can get the job done right in the shortest amount of time at the
least cost are the ones that seem to rise to the top at least in my company.
You need to know any limitations your disability places on you and you need
to have a solution BEFORE you go to the job so it doesnâ¬"t hurt you in your
career and you can keep up with the normally sighted people. For example,
my reading speed is about 130wpm. A normal person reads at about 250wpm.
You can see it will take me twice as long reading as someone else. In my
daily job, Iâ¬"m constantly reading code on the computer monitor. So you
can see how a normal person without any vision issues will finish things
before me. Doing your best in this case is not good enough because youâ¬"ll
always be coming in last. And that equates to less money at your
performance review. Trust me, I have 30+ years of experience to back me up
on this. If you think Braille, for example, will help overcome slow
reading, or using programs such as Jaws, learn it BEFORE you get to the job
so thereâ¬"s no chance of supervisors forming opinions of how you work.
>Know that the job will eventually change, and sooner than later. In my
>job, new technologies are always coming up. The company
is looking for faster and better ways of doing things. And that means
theyâ¬"re trying new programming languages, new things to make us meaner and
leaner programmers. And that means that you have to learn quickly, and
probably more often than you would like. You may be required (not by your
employer but just by the fact that you have to keep up) to spend extra hours
in the evening learning if you donâ¬"t have enough time during the day. The
years of learning a few things for your job and doing that for 5-10 years
are gone. Figure on having to relearn your job every couple of years
depending on what new thing is coming out.
You have to ask yourself if you feel like keeping up like that all the
time, or if your disability will put limitations on you there. You are
definitely under pressure in these situations.
>Be prepared to work overtime. If youâ¬"re in a professional job such
>as I am and youâ¬"re not as fast as others, itâ¬"s going to
take you more hours to do the same work in a time-frame that an employer
considers normal. Iâ¬"ve come to the conclusion I can probably never please
my employer. Or, if you have to do the training thing, you may not get it
all done in the course of 8 hours. In my job, an 8 hour day is the thing of
the past. I work more like a 10 hour day just to stay even .. to make up
for my poor eyesight. Even with technology such as screen magnification and
speech, and Braille, I still work a 10 hour day. With the demands of the
job, itâ¬"s just the standard.
>So consider all these things. Perhaps you can assess your situation
>and justify going into computer programming. It is a good
career, but to keep up and compete is a challenge. Itâ¬"s even moreso with
a vision disability in my opinion.
>I don't want to throw cold water on things, but I've had a lot of
>frustration in my career. It's no fun when you come in second
most of the time and people seem to move ahead of you and nothing seems to
work.
>---- Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>> When I was looking for work with my programming certificate, I got an
>> offer from the IRS, but the salary was very low, and any programming
>> would have to be approved by head office in DC. I declined the
>> offer, and soon got a much better one. Even though I started at a
>> low, trainee salary, it was still significantly better than the IRS
>> was offering. Though perhaps IRS salaries are the same across the
>> country, and only low when compared to average New York salaries.
>> Tracy
>>
>> > I googled tfor info on the program. A link is below. A one
>> > paragraph summary is as follows...
>> >
>> >> Program Description: The Programming curriculum prepares clients
>> >> to work
>> > in a wide range of programming
>> >> environments including .NET and JAVA, and other application
>> >> projects as
>> > well. Certification exams for JAVA and
>> >> Microsoft Certified Professional Developer (MCPD) are offered
>> >> through the
>> > program. Some prior programming
>> >> experience is helpful, but not necessary to be successful in this
>> >> course.
>> > This program often offers the opportunity to get
>> >> a commitment for employment with the Internal Revenue Service.
>> >
>> > http://lwsb.org/index.php/general-overview/vocational-catalog/#cont
>> > e
>> > nt
>> >
>> > Wasn't it this list where we just had a huge debate about java?
>> > I'm thinking java programming might be making a huge comeback in
>> > writing apps for mobile phones. But I'll admit I don't really know
>> > what I'm talking about. I would note, however, that the link above
>> > indicates that the Lions web site itself is written in php, not
>> > .net or
java.
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>> > Carcione
>> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 9:38 AM
>> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>> >
>> > Hi Daniel.
>> > I got a programming certificate, after I found I was going nowhere
>> > with my college degree. I looked around, and found a certificate
>> > course that taught the languages employers were looking for at the
>> > time. It was local, not out-of-state.
>> > If you do go to Lions World, try to make sure that they are
>> > teaching languages that will actually be in demand.
>> > Learning programming was a very good move for me. I have a secure
>> > job that pays well, and is usually interesting. I'm not sure if
>> > the IRS job pays well, or is interesting.
>> > My brother is also a blind programmer, working for subcontractors
>> > to the government. He gets paid OK, but gets laid off every few years.
>> > So your results may vary. But I think he'd rather be programming
>> > than having a rather dull but secure IRS job.
>> > HTH.
>> > Tracy
>> >
>> >> Hello Everyone:
>> >>
>> >> I hope this is the appropriate forum for this question.
>> >>
>> >> I am legally blind with a background in engineering and manufacturing.
>> >> After
>> >> talking with many blind engineers, I find that many of them are
>> >> thriving computer programmers.
>> >>
>> >> I am now trying to decide whether to go to Lions World in Little
>> >> Rock to take their 10 month computer programming course. My
>> >> counselor at my states agency for the blind wants me to go to
>> >> Lions World but to take one of their IRS courses, which would in
>> >> essence be a guaranteed job with the Feds.
>> >>
>> >> I am the type of person who could do any job, at least that is
>> >> what my aptitude tests tell me.
>> >>
>> >> What is life like for blind computer programmers? Do most work for
>> >> employers or as freelancers/contractors? Are there any languages
>> >> in particular I should focus on? Are there any other ways of
>> >> learning computer programming as a blind person than going out of
state?
>> >> Learning on my own is just not working for me.
>> >>
>> >> Any advice you can give would be appreciated.
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >>
>> >> Daniel Garcia
>> >> Northville, MI
>> >>
>> >>
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