[nfbcs] Career Advice

[John G. Heim]

These are all familiar complaints to me. But whenever I have problems like
this or when they happen to somebody I know, I ask myself what am I going to
do about it? So you know what I did? I started the International Association
of Visually Impaired Technologists.  See www.iavit.org. This is a registered
503C NGO. These are our goals:

1. Share information on adaptive techniques.
2. Work with providers of technology to help them make their products more
accessible.
3. Educate the public about the abilities of visually impaired computer
professionals.
4. Help with career advancement for visually impaired computer
professionals. 

Right now, an exciting project we have is that we are beginning to work with
VMWare to make their products more accessible. We have a wiki and an email
list for blind technologists to share ideas.  If you're interested in any of
this, go to our web site (www.iavit.org) and add some pages to the wiki or
volunteer for a committee.

You can help. I don't know if we can win. But we're going to try.

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jeanine Lineback
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 10:28 PM
To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice

The environment I, in regards to security and blindness products, is the
same here in Texas. I work for state government and it is get more and more
difficult for me to do my daily job tasks with JAWS running on a sluggish
server that is for all state employees of DARS. The only way to even get
your own individual license for JAWS to run on a laptop computer is to fill
out several forms which must be signed by your supervisor and their
supervisor.
Then the forms go through several layers of management that deal
specifically with computer devices and security. Let's not even talk about
hooking up a BrailleSense to my computer at work because it wasn't purchased
for that reason. It would be a clear violation of policy without a form to
make it "Legal.".


-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: October 11, 2012 10:15 PM
To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice

I concur completely with Steve's observations below. These days, in a
business or even government environment, less and less traditional
programming is being done and more and more what programming there is is
contracted out. Moreover, as Steve says, increasingly, businesses and
government are buying off-the-shelf software packages (some of which are
screen-reader-accessible and some of which are not). A few hot-shot blind
programmers are going into environments such as C# and java and more are
working in interpretive languages such as Python. But, as Steve says, a
number of us are going into other arenas such as network administration.
Over the past few years, my government agency has gone from a HP OpenVMS
environment to a windows environment (alas, I wish my agency had chosen
UNIX) and so I'm having to come up to speed rather quickly to become an
administrator of Windows Server . 2008 R2 systems. When I began my
employment 33 years ago, I was actually doing systems programming in
assembly language and if we wanted data brought into our computer systems,
we wrote the routines directly to do this including the drivers for the
hardware that handled the data. No more. As Steve says, we have a lot of SQL
and other packages running on servers running essentially what is Windows 7
on steroids -- Windows Server. 2008 R2.

I'm not sure I'd advise programming as a good entry-level job path today
either. But those who find it fascinating *can* find jobs. But the
environment is much more competitive and fast-paced than it once was and
many tasks these days are more one-off and less are continuing maintenance
of existing tasks, at least in my shop.

And all this is complicated by the almost paranoid interest in security
these days. It often just about takes an act of Congress to get a
screen-reader on one's work station now, for example.
This may just be an artifact of the electric power system (where I work) but
I suspect it goes further than this. I remember some time this year when one
fellow was trying to figure out how to hook up his laptop with all his
specialized blind-friendly programming tools on secure corporate networks
where such connectivity is basically forbidden. I have somewhat the same
problem in that I can't hook up my BrailleSensePLUS to my workstation
without violating policies.

So the environment isn't as straightforward as it once was.

And I, too, take extra time and seldom put in for comp time even though I'm
allowed to. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.

Mike Freeman


-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 12:12 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice

Generally I would agree with both of you, too, but what I would say for my
two cents is that I don't know that I would start out now as a programmer if
I was looking to work for a company.
Certainly there are still programming jobs, but there are not the jobs there
used to be.  It is much, much more common now for companies to buy software
that they can use to perform many of the functions they used to accomplish
with in-house systems that were designed and written by their programmers
and analysts.
When companies need to have programming done, it is far more common now to
contract it out or even outsource it to off-shore locations.
However, there is a lot of need yet for people who are skilled in database
design and knowing how to work with databases which includes a thorough
knowledge of SQL.  SQL isn't programming but is rewarding and challenging in
its own way.  There is quite a bit being done with networking, too, and
there are some blind people who are involved with network administration.

Of course, if one is thinking of developing software and wants to write it
some themselves, a programming language is very important.  Also, if one has
his or her eyes on a specific area where programming is common, learning a
programming language is still a good idea.  I also think there is value to
be gained by learning a programming language and writing something just to
get a sense of what is necessary.  I wonder, though, what the success rate
is for blind persons or anyone for that matter, going to school to learn a
programming language and then getting a good job.  I am in a position where
I work that occasionally has me looking at a COBOL program to see what is
wrong with it.  We still run a good bit of COBOL here, but the maintenance
of COBOL is contracted out.  My value to my company, probably more than
programming, is my in depth knowledge of how the business processes relate
to our computer systems.  That has allowed me to take that expertise and
bring it with me as I changed to a different computer platform, working
primarily with databases.
Like John, I anticipated where the need would be and felt I could do all
right in the SQL environment and found reasons to learn quite a bit about
that, some on my own time, so when there was a push in that direction, I had
at least some of the tools I needed.  For someone just starting out in this
field, it is very important to look at the entire field, get some idea of
what is interesting and also what fits ones strengths.  One also needs to
look at what one can do for a long enough time to get some understanding of
how a given employer does business even if it isn't ideal, knowing one might
be able to move into something they like better having gained that
experience.

Fifteen years ago, I would never have believed what a mixed bag
accessibility still is.  Unfortunately, there are going to be companies who
are using tools that are inaccessible enough to make working for that
company a loosing bet.  I still maintain a hope that things will continue to
improve, but it can still be a factor.  Sometimes it is clearly the
developers of software who are to blame, but some of the problem is that
screen reader developers just don't have time to implement newer
technologies that could be accessible because they are so busy chasing the
development of the latest operating systems.  I don't know the answer to
that particular problem.  Anyway, there are probably no exact answers, but
hopefully our responses provide some useful food for thought.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 13:21:39 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:

>I pretty much agree with everything you say below although I
might not
>paint quite such a dark picture. But, yeah, I feel I've
been successful in my career by working harder than everybody else, putting
in extra time to make up for being slower than the sighted guys, and doing a
lot of research on my own time.

>I also agree with the point about keeping your skills up. There
is this
>phenomenon I call "backwatering". New technologies tend
to be inaccessible so a blind technologist doesn't get the assignment of
working with them. Slowly, he becomes less and less crucial to his company
because he's working with old technology.
Then when layoffs come around, he's the one to go. And in some ways, that's
only fair. After all, he is the least important member of the team.

>IMO, its important to be very aggressive in pursuing new
technologies.
>I taught myself on my own time almost all the skills I use
in my current job. I am sure there are jobs where that isn't necessary but
they are few and far between. Also, to some degree it depends on what you
want out of your career. I work for the University of Wisconsin and they
don't layoff people very often.
But a few years ago, I went to my boss and said I thought my skills were
being wasted and that I could do a lot more, he said, "What's your problem?
You're still getting paid, aren't you?" But I wasn't satisfied just pulling
down a paycheck. Plus, I figured that eventually they'd get around to
getting rid of me. So I switched jobs and got into a different department.

>----Original Message-----
>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>majolls at cox.net
>Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:31 AM
>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>Cc: Tracy Carcione
>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice

>Working in the computer field is a challenging experience,
especially
>for a
blind person (well partially sighted in my case).
Here are some things to consider:

>Know your craft thoroughly.  Be as prepared with your
programming
>languages as you possibly can be.  Corporations are looking for
people that can solve a problem quickly and who know where to go look when
they donb,"t know the answers.   Therefore, you need to
be as knowledgeable as you possibly can be in whatever programming languages
you decide to work in.

> Know your weaknesses and have solutions in place before you go
get the
> job.  Itb,"s a competitive environment out there and the
people that can get the job done right in the shortest amount of time at the
least cost are the ones that seem to rise to the top at least in my company.
You need to know any limitations your disability places on you and you need
to have a solution BEFORE you go to the job so it doesnb,"t hurt you in your
career and you can keep up with the normally sighted people.  For example,
my reading speed is about 130wpm.  A normal person reads at about 250wpm.
You can see it will take me twice as long reading as someone else.  In my
daily job, Ib,"m constantly reading code on the computer monitor.  So you
can see how a normal person without any vision issues will finish things
before me.  Doing your best in this case is not good enough because youb,"ll
always be coming in last.  And that equates to less money at your
performance review.
Trust me, I have 30+ years of experience to back me up on this.
If you think Braille, for example, will help overcome slow reading, or using
programs such as Jaws, learn it BEFORE you get to the job so thereb,"s no
chance of supervisors forming opinions of how you work.

>Know that the job will eventually change, and sooner than later.
In my
>job, new technologies are always coming up.  The company
is looking for faster and better ways of doing things.  And that means
theyb,"re trying new programming languages, new things to make us meaner and
leaner programmers.  And that means that you have to learn quickly, and
probably more often than you would like.  You may be required (not by your
employer but just by the fact that you have to keep up) to spend extra hours
in the evening learning if you donb,"t have enough time during the day.
The years of learning a few things for your job and doing that for 5-10
years are gone.  Figure on having to relearn your job every couple of years
depending on what new thing is coming out.

You have to ask yourself if you feel like  keeping up like that all the
time, or if your disability will put limitations on you there.  You are
definitely under pressure in these situations.

>Be prepared to work overtime.  If youb,"re in a professional job
such
>as I am and youb,"re not as fast as others, itb,"s going to
take you more hours to do the same work in a time-frame that an employer
considers normal.  Ib,"ve come to the conclusion I can probably never please
my employer.  Or, if you have to do the training thing, you may not get it
all done in the course of 8 hours.  In my job, an 8 hour day is the thing of
the past.  I work more like a 10 hour day just to stay even .. to make up
for my poor eyesight.  Even with technology such as screen magnification and
speech, and Braille, I still work a 10 hour day.  With the demands of the
job, itb,"s just the standard.

>So consider all these things.  Perhaps you can assess your
situation
>and justify going into computer programming.  It is a good
career, but to keep up and compete is a challenge.  Itb,"s even moreso with
a vision disability in my opinion.

>I don't want to throw cold water on things, but I've had a lot
of
>frustration in my career.  It's no fun when you come in second
most of the time and people seem to move ahead of you and nothing seems to
work.

>---- Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>> When I was looking for work with my programming certificate, I
got an
>> offer from the IRS, but the salary was very low, and any
programming
>> would have to be approved by head office in DC.  I declined
the
>> offer, and soon got a much better one.  Even though I started
at a
>> low, trainee salary, it was still significantly better than
the IRS
>> was offering. Though perhaps IRS salaries are the same across
the
>> country, and only low when compared to average New York
salaries.
>> Tracy
>>
>> > I googled tfor info on the program. A link is below. A one 
>> > paragraph summary is as follows...
>> >
>> >> Program Description: The Programming curriculum prepares
clients
>> >> to work
>> > in a wide range of programming
>> >> environments including .NET and JAVA, and other application

>> >> projects as
>> > well. Certification exams for JAVA and
>> >> Microsoft Certified Professional Developer (MCPD) are
offered
>> >> through the
>> > program. Some prior programming
>> >> experience is helpful, but not necessary to be successful
in this
>> >> course.
>> > This program often offers the opportunity to get
>> >> a commitment for employment with the Internal Revenue
Service.
>> >
>> >
http://lwsb.org/index.php/general-overview/vocational-catalog/#co
nt
>> > e
>> > nt
>> >
>> > Wasn't it this list where we just had a huge debate about
java?
>> > I'm thinking java programming might be making a huge
comeback in
>> > writing apps for mobile phones.  But I'll admit I don't
really know
>> > what I'm talking about. I would note, however, that the link
above
>> > indicates that the Lions web site itself is written in php,
not
>> > .net or
java.
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
Tracy
>> > Carcione
>> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 9:38 AM
>> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>> >
>> > Hi Daniel.
>> > I got a programming certificate, after I found I was going
nowhere
>> > with my college degree.  I looked around, and found a
certificate
>> > course that taught the languages employers were looking for
at the
>> > time.  It was local, not out-of-state.
>> > If you do go to Lions World, try to make sure that they are 
>> > teaching languages that will actually  be in demand.
>> > Learning programming was a very good move for me.  I have a
secure
>> > job that pays well, and is usually interesting.  I'm not
sure if
>> > the IRS job pays well, or is interesting.
>> > My brother is also a blind programmer, working for
subcontractors
>> > to the government.  He gets paid OK, but gets laid off every
few years.
>> > So your results may vary. But I think he'd rather be
programming
>> > than having a rather dull but secure IRS job.
>> > HTH.
>> > Tracy
>> >
>> >> Hello Everyone:
>> >>
>> >> I hope this is the appropriate forum for this question.
>> >>
>> >> I am legally blind with a background in engineering and
manufacturing.
>> >> After
>> >> talking with many blind engineers, I find that many of them
are
>> >> thriving computer programmers.
>> >>
>> >> I am now trying to decide whether to go to Lions World in
Little
>> >> Rock to take their 10 month computer programming course. My

>> >> counselor at my states agency for the blind wants me to go
to
>> >> Lions World but to take one of their IRS courses, which
would in
>> >> essence be a guaranteed job with the Feds.
>> >>
>> >> I am the type of person who could do any job, at least that
is
>> >> what my aptitude tests tell me.
>> >>
>> >> What is life like for blind computer programmers? Do most
work for
>> >> employers or as freelancers/contractors? Are there any
languages
>> >> in particular I should focus on? Are there any other ways
of
>> >> learning computer programming as a blind person than going
out of
state?
>> >> Learning on my own is just not working for me.
>> >>
>> >> Any advice you can give would be appreciated.
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >>
>> >> Daniel Garcia
>> >> Northville, MI
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >
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