[nfbcs] Verts (was Re: Career Advice)
Anonymous
blindhelpfultech at gmail.com
Sun Oct 14 16:08:01 UTC 2012
http://information4all.fav.cc/
forgot to add this
On 10/14/12, Anonymous <blindhelpfultech at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well thanks Lee and I also wanted to ask something, due to my problems
> with math I do not know if i was never thought it in a way, I could
> understand or if I just gave up on some of the math in high school I
> live in the state of MI and will be moving out in the month of
> December and I have low amounts of income until, I am able to get a
> job and go to college of some short, I wanted to know if you know of
> any cheep relible ISP's with good down and up speeds. The problem is
> that I am use to 30 down and 5 up high speed. I wanted to know to do
> tasks such as skype, teamtalk, email, my website, and connecting a
> braille plus, what service you would you advise and what speed. I also
> want to get a phone that HAS no limit on texts, calling and don't
> really care about web data as many people still to this day, do not
> know what putting a password or a good password that I am able to
> guess. My family is just good at using their home phone number as a
> wireless password. I also want to go into IT, but I am not quite sure
> what and from what I know it is not going to be programming. Can you
> please provide me a link to all the diffrent, high demand options?
> Also, what would you advise for (a blind enough person to consiter
> maybe having eyesight sometime down the road) to go into for IT?
>
> Doug and all others intrusted, I am making a website for information
> for the blind. If we would have understood some things, it would have
> been a less painful road. Please do not spam as it is a free host and
> if I use up to much CPU on their systems, they will remove my whole
> thing. I will post it in here and other groups when I am done.
>
> Request for the website: If you would like to share your personal
> story about how you got a job and what helped and that kind of thing.
> Or what peace of advice you have for others. It can be anything
> regarding can be anything as my website allows for creative and
> diffrent thinking.. I would like at least 6 of these storys.I will put
> your story in whole with no editing other then grammer things I
> notice, be mindful of what detail you provide.If you wish not to have
> your name in the story, please let me know and I will make sure it is
> not there., I respect that. This is not my primary email, but if you
> would like to be a part of it please contact: blindhelpfultech+tech
> with the subject "tell my story". I will understand if there is no
> takers to start off with as I have no content on the website yet.
>
> On 10/14/12, qubit <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Mine was software for DOS. There were 2 versions -- Vert Plus which came
>> with it's own synth that sounded like it had a Swedish accent (I named it
>> Swen and I used it at work), and Personal Vert, which was less expensive,
>> and came with an external synth that was annoying to listen to. It was
>> lovingly called the little pervert...*smile*
>> I always thought that Vert Plus was nastier than the little pervert as
>> for
>> some reason some of the sentences came out sounding like profanity.
>> --le
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Doug Lee" <dgl at dlee.org>
>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 12:01 AM
>> Subject: [nfbcs] Verts (was Re: Career Advice)
>>
>>
>> Quick reply to one question from Laura: I used both PC Vert and Soft
>> Vert! Wonder which one you had. PC Vert was an external, monotone
>> speech box, while Soft Vert was software, as the name implies. I
>> thought Soft Vert sounded a bit like a bored version of DecTalk. PC
>> Vert was what the U of Illinois Rehab Center had available, so I used
>> that quite a lot.
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 11:49:04PM -0500, qubit wrote:
>> With an attitude like that, you will go far Nadia.
>> Although I don't have the same eye condition you have (my eyes didn't
>> die),
>> I had very low and gradually decreasing vision in one eye over the space
>> of
>> 40 years, and so I overused my eye all through school, grad school and
>> career. After years of intense and sometimes stressful work, I began to
>> suffer from anxiety over the fact that everything depended on my fragile
>> eye
>> as I pushed my vision to the limit.
>> I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
>> At one point I got myself a screen reader to help with reading emails,
>> and
>> that was really amazing in helping with eye strain. But it was an
>> awkward
>> screen reader to use -- anyone else use Vert?
>> Then came windows, which went from being a novelty to being a requirement
>> in
>> the workplace.
>> I got jaws for windows (not sure why I picked jaws rather than
>> windoweyes).
>> But yes, you have to force yourself to make time for keeping up with
>> access
>> tech.
>>
>> As for programming, I don't think it is that much more difficult for a
>> blind
>> person, as most the time you spend thinking rather than reading or
>> writing.
>> If you have good math skills, it is not bad at all.
>> My only difficulty now is that I still miss seeing the screen when I am
>> coding. Using speech is not as natural for me as visualizing the code
>> and
>> structure is easier when I can see the code. That is where a braille
>> display is helpful, but I am not a fast braille reader.
>> Well, good luck and happy hacking all.
>> --le
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Anonymous" <blindhelpfultech at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 1:41 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>
>>
>> I have learned the lesson over time that personal story written by
>> someone on the list is so true. I had many people point out to me and
>> this is sad in a way, but I guess has been the problem. When people
>> tell you just to use your vision to get by, it is fine until you don't
>> have the option of giving up or trying your best, for me that has
>> never been good enough. I am moving out soon and in ways from what my
>> friend stated you are using more ideas that they give you for complete
>> blindness. I looked into what and how I was going about things before
>> I learned the light went on in my head that maybe just seeing is not
>> good enough anymore. I have a really long personal story to go along
>> with this. I am sorry in advance for the long email.
>>
>> Starting my 8th grade year, I noticed that I could not read the board
>> in school, even if I was about 2 feet or less away from it. I know
>> braille enough to pick up on what I have lost so far, thankfully that
>> is the case. I learned it my 4th grade year in about one year and it
>> was at one point faster then my print reading. That was until I hit my
>> 6th grade year and "I thought I just did not have the time." In all
>> truth looking back on it, I did not think I was going to need it. As
>> one would think well my vision is fine now and what is the need for
>> it?
>>
>> When I was in fourth grade due to my eye condition, I lost all the
>> remaining eyesight in my left eye and according to my family I did not
>> even tell them. My eye condition is very rare and if you get it before
>> your ten from what I read you have a 50/50 chance of having no
>> eyesight. Growing up in school, I was always told use your eyes and I
>> would always recant I am using them to the best of my ability.
>>
>> I started working with computers when I was about 9 around my 8th
>> grade year, my family and I could not put two and two together about
>> why I would go through one computer system, every 3 months. In some
>> shape or forum it would be unusable. I kept claiming, I know what I am
>> doing and they would always say then why do we have to get another
>> system repaired again. They also stated and you want to go into IT? I
>> said of course technology has been a huge tool in my life and I enjoy
>> it a lot. They would always say good luck getting a job with braking
>> tech all the time.
>>
>> . My freshman year and maybe my whole life. When no one was reading
>> things to me. I had to take a test without anyone reading it and I
>> mainly played fill in the gap and hope what I am replying is right. At
>> least well my aid was away, school became a nightmare.
>>
>> My soft more year in high school, my left eye kept watering and they
>> kept saying it is allergens and I kept saying then why does it feel
>> like you just sliced my eye with a knife in many spots and why does it
>> keep watering. It got worse and worse. Well after four months of
>> debate and many eye doctor visits, I found out my eye was dying in my
>> head and I had two options. Mind you, I was only 16 at that time and
>> it felt like a huge choice and I just didn't want to regret the option
>> I made. The two options were remove the eye, have another surgery and
>> wait 6 months and maybe it would not even work. I said to my mom on
>> the way to the eye doctor before I knew my two options. "why the heck
>> do I even have this eye, I can't see out of it and it constantly
>> causes pain and problems" "What good is it doing for me being there
>> anyway?" I ended up getting rid of it and just being done with half
>> the eye problems.
>>
>> Shortly after this problem, this happen in reply to my actions and
>> statements.
>>
>> 10th grade year I was just about ready to pull my hair out as it
>> seemed, I kept telling people I can't read or see that or it is to
>> far away or just email me the darn thing. I kept getting the reply
>> "you could see that last year". I kept saying well it is not last year
>> now is it, it is a new year with new things and maybe new things I
>> can't read. After that remark I was told by my mom once I said I feel
>> like I am missing a lot more then I use to. She said, I agree and some
>> of the evidence is your emails that don't turn out with right spelling
>> and missing words in the middle of what statement you are typing. She
>> said to me just wait, in a day we have a low vision evaluation. I said
>> ok and I was also not thinking or knowing what she meant by that, but
>> I just went with it.
>>
>> The light went on for all of us once he said your "legally blind" and
>> I said what does that mean to me other then just another term. He said
>> well it means a lot in services and might have been the reason why you
>> broke things and could not read much. After that happened I went down
>> to the center in Kalmazoo for a combined 6 and a half months with the
>> summers, I spent there.
>>
>> The first summer may I mind you I spent the first 4 weeks, killing
>> myself over the darn keybourd test, why I did not understand. It was
>> the numbers and the shift options, I kept missing or mixing up. After
>> getting that down.
>>
>> The second summer I walked into my class again. I walked into my
>> technology class and he said after looking at how I use the computer
>> on a normal day with nothing extra to help. Your eye looks like it is
>> going to fall out of your head with the amount of strain and I said so
>> it was not just me skipping around and missing things. He said nope,
>> just someone who has never been told about AT? I looked at him and he
>> explained I had two options at that point, JAWS or ZoomText. After a
>> week I noticed that I just could not stand zoomtext, I told him well
>> first off if I need to I can use windows magnifier, but if I can't see
>> past that amount of zoom, I should be using JAWS anyway. He later
>> noted in my report the following:
>>
>> 1. The school never took the time to explain other options and I said
>> at one point, I feel like I am starting over with technology and using
>> AT. He noted that was very true and he understands that everyone feels
>> that way at first.
>> 2. I had a very visual understanding of windows, but give me jaws and
>> ask what a heading is, I would just ask him to explain.
>> 3. I wanted jaws to prepare for the worst and I just wanted my
>> computer to look as normal as possible along with using something that
>> I will not have to relearn. If something happened.
>>
>> I went home, started a great debate with my school after a year and a
>> half of fighting, I have access to jaws and a laptop.
>>
>> A few things I would have never learned if I would have not wanted to
>> know how things work:
>> HTML and W3C guidelines Alone with windows shortcuts that I never
>> heard of before. Someone called me and said my mouse broke, can I shut
>> down the system, until I get a new mouse and I said sure you can and
>> walked them through it.
>>
>> My teacher at school, I broke my computer. The whole desktop was
>> zoomed in and I said try hitting CRL and moving the mouse wheel and it
>> worked. She called IT they were sitting there, watching me walk
>> through it and they said I thought it was the video card, I never
>> thought of looking there. They left and said to her just ask nadia
>> before we get a phone call next time.
>>
>> My point being I have learned after the third summer there "i am
>> faster when I am blindfolded vs looking at things. That was also noted
>> and it hit me, the problem is I had my eyesight doing everything it
>> couldn't.
>>
>> I am now 19 and am starting to relize that braille is a priority just
>> as much as learning jaws was. I have only used jaws for 1 year and 6
>> months combined with a full copy and not just a 40 minute demo, but
>> for some reason I still get the phone calls asking things from people
>> who have been blind there whole life.
>>
>> It has come to the point where I call places no longer saying I am
>> visually impaired, I say blind. It works better as they tend to be
>> more detailed and then I can ask my visual questions and most of them
>> will just say, you use to have more eyesight and still am a little bit
>> of a visual person and I say yes and end of phone call. When I started
>> saying that it was my way of accepting the fact that yes my vision is
>> not reliable for most things, I was trying to have it do what it could
>> not..
>>
>> Some side notes: I walked into MCB the first summer and they said what
>> size font would you like your documents in and I replied 12. They said
>> well something here does not match. I said what do you mean? People
>> are telling you that that is as big as they can get things? I said
>> nope, I am just use to it. They said well do me a favor stop being use
>> to killing your eyes from here on out. I said ok and I at the age of
>> 16 had no idea what they were trying to tell me. I now after meeting
>> someone and talking with them about it, he said to me they are trying
>> to kindly say, your not trying to kill your eye by doing what you were
>> use to here. I said something to the effect to them, well most of the
>> time I am told it can't be more then 3 pages you print. They said
>> well, here we do not give a care about the paper we go through as long
>> as we are not killing your eyes. I then from there am use to size 26
>> and when I walked back into school and said it is not big enough they
>> said "14 use to be ok, and I said well use to I was killing my eye
>> going by something I did not no any better." I said to my friend
>> awhile back, when I started using jaws for a year, I feel like maybe
>> my eyesight is not as bad. he said trust me it is, but you have
>> learned what strain is and what amounts you were doing when, you did
>> not have anything bigger when you requested it. I went back to the
>> center and the notes were the following:
>> 1. I think she has stopped using her vision as much and she is more
>> productive that way.
>> 2. She seems to be ok with the facts now
>>
>> Point just due to the fact of you being use to something does not mean
>> it was not killing your eyes to start off with. A good friend of mine
>> told me the following:
>>
>> Size 14 ? He said "That is torcher" I said why? He said think about it
>> anything you are pushed to do that creates the amount of strain your
>> eye was under for 14 years and created pain is in my book the word
>> "torcher".
>>
>> The top things a blind person has in their toolkit when getting a job
>> and keeping it is the following:
>>
>> -Willingness to take work home with them and learn
>> -Happy to learn new things
>> -Advocate for themselves
>> -
>> Most of all motivation, it is different for each person, but part of
>> my motivation that people say they cannot seem to understand is.
>> -I want to be productive, but when I have time off, I don?t use it for
>> time off.
>> Example my summer job review, your always doing something on your time
>> off, I don?t understand. Do nothing for once. It is your day off why
>> are you still around doing things? ?Even when there is ?nothing to
>> do?, you find something to do.? I was always told even if there is no
>> ?task to be done, there is always something else to be done? Most of
>> the time that is learning or making your job more effective.
>> -I want to learn new things; in fact, that is what I do in my spare time
>> -Kill myths and untrue things about blindness
>> -Help others
>> -Do the job to my best and find ways to do it better
>> -Insults are a challenge for me to do even better at things along with
>> degrading terms
>> Example: you spend too much time on something =I find another way to
>> do it and do it as well.
>> Example: Your so picky it drives me crazy = be more picky and proficient
>> One thing that motivates me more than that though is learning new
>> things, I like to learn new things and say I learned myself. That for
>> some reason never is old.
>> Something that drives people nuts that helps me out a lot though is
>> being positive. Someone said to me why are you so happy all the
>> time??? I said, I may not be but why must I drag you down as well?
>>
>> Work ethic and willingness to learn gets you far and as one person
>> said "one thing blind people have going for them, is we are use to
>> challeges and having to overcome them. I agree with that as well.
>>
>> With regards,
>> Nadia
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/13/12, david hertweck <david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> Yes as a computer scientist / engineer doing design / architecture work
>>> gives a person more flexibility. Also management.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Louis Maher
>>> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 5:50 PM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>
>>> Another answer is to study as much math and other sciences as possible
>>> so
>>> that you can become a scientist and can design the algorithms and not
>>> just
>>> follow the lead of others.
>>>
>>> You must love math and physics, or some other science, to make this
>>> work.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Louis Maher
>>> 713-444-7838
>>> ljmaher at swbell.net
>>> http://www.nfbtx.org/localchapters/houston
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> majolls at cox.net
>>> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:10 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>
>>> I did paint a rather dark picture, but I was just stating facts. I
>>> wanted
>>> to make sure that budding programmers knew what they were getting into.
>>> That might make someone think twice whether programming (and the
>>> challenges
>>> that go along with it for a blind person) is really their thing. Do
>>> they
>>> want to put up with the daily challenges? Doing extra work that
>>> normally
>>> sighted people don't have to do? Perhaps not going as fast and being
>>> penalized for your vision which imposes that limitation ... being judged
>>> for
>>> something you have no control over? On this last point, you probably
>>> will
>>> experience this in any job, not just programming. That's why I said you
>>> need to have your solutions and skills up to snuff before you get into
>>> the
>>> job. That way you know what accomodations to ask for and you know they
>>> work. And that's why you need to think about the duties of the job
>>> BEFORE
>>> you get there .. so your solutions address as many issues as possible,
>>> and
>>> you don't have very many issues and surprises on the job. It will save
>>> you
>>> a lot of headaches. When I started working back in the late 70's, I
>>> hadn't
>>> put 2 and 2 together. I was a naive 22-year old kid who thought the
>>> world
>>> was my oyster and had no concept of being measured on a job. We were
>>> all
>>> told we could do anything we wanted to do, but nobody told me that I
>>> needed
>>> to be aware that the disability would throw me curves and make it more
>>> difficult to achieve what everyone else took for granted. I guess I was
>>> dumb.
>>> I had no idea how much slower I was or what impact poor vision would
>>> have
>>> on
>>> my career. I hadn't learned Braille and screen readers hadn't been
>>> invented
>>> yet. So all I had was my vision and reading print. I found out real
>>> fast
>>> that others could do things in less time and It was a rude awakening
>>> when
>>> I
>>> realized that I was being punished for something that was beyond my
>>> control.
>>> I'm not sure I would have listened to someone at that age if they told
>>> me
>>> to
>>> be aware of what problems the disability might bring, but I wish someone
>>> had
>>> told me of what to expect. It's your career that's at stake. I might
>>> have
>>> tried to prepare more, although at that time a lot of the technology
>>> wasn't
>>> even around. I'd just hate for someone else to experience any of this
>>> when
>>> maybe a few words of warning might help them.
>>>
>>> You know, I've heard blind people say ... "I don't want to be treated
>>> any
>>> differently than a normally sighted person", but do they really know
>>> what
>>> they're asking for? In the end, that's exactly how the employer will
>>> treat
>>> them. And they'll measure them against the standard that other normally
>>> sighted have to work toward. That's why they HAVE to be prepared and
>>> know
>>> their solutions ahead of time. If they'll get what they ask for and it
>>> might not be what they expect and/or hope for.
>>>
>>> And here's something that may be interesting to some of you. Personal
>>> story.
>>>
>>> I had been programming for a number of years and I didn't have any
>>> answers
>>> to the issues I've stated. I was using my vision all the time to
>>> program
>>> and simply didn't see a solution. I was taking a programming design
>>> course
>>> and the book we were reading talked about making software
>>> efficient/faster.
>>> The book eventually said ... "if you don't change the fundamental
>>> architecture of the software, you'll only be able to go as fast as the
>>> limitation the architecture imposes upon you". When I read that, the
>>> lightbulb went on. I realized that as long as I used my vision to do
>>> the
>>> job, I was limited to what my vision could do. If I was going to be
>>> more
>>> efficient ... if I was going to have any chance of going faster ... or
>>> doing
>>> this more efficiently ... I would have to STOP USING MY VISION to the
>>> extent
>>> possible. In other words, find an alternate method. That's something I
>>> had
>>> NEVER considered because being raised with vision .. it's drilled into
>>> your
>>> head that you read print, that you just go get glasses, or you just do
>>> the
>>> best you can and basically give up because that's all you can do.
>>>
>>> The big takeaway was to eliminate the vision. I'm a firm believer that
>>> this
>>> is what you have to do. Find a different solution that removes the
>>> problem.
>>> You know the old adage ... if you keep doing something the same way, why
>>> should you expect a different answer? I think you have to get rid of
>>> the
>>> method that doesn't work to expect any sort of improvement.
>>>
>>> Solutions to that issue ... learn Braille .. use a Braille display ..
>>> learn
>>> Jaws (or some screen reader). Know how fast you read with your vision
>>> and
>>> strive to get to where you can read faster with the alternate tools
>>> since
>>> you know that the vision is your Achiles hheel.
>>>
>>> Since then I have measured myself. I know that I only read print at
>>> 130wpm.
>>> No wonder people (when reading a page of text) get done in half the
>>> time!!
>>> I have since found out that normal people read at around 250wpm. And
>>> that's
>>> one reason that I've learned Braille. Well, I'm only reading 65 wpm in
>>> Braille, but I know with print, I don't have any chance of exceeding the
>>> 130
>>> barrier. Fifty + years of experience there. Maybe with Braille I'll
>>> eventually get to 200.
>>>
>>> Sorry, this was a rather lengthy email. But maybe the idea stated by
>>> Clint
>>> Eastwood in his Dirty Harry movies .. "A man has to know his
>>> limitations"
>>> ... has been brought out here. Know them. Know what problems they'll
>>> impose upon you. Then try to find alternate solutions that will help
>>> you
>>> overcome them. It's the only way I can see to help you compete in this
>>> world. If you don't do that, you simply get run over.
>>>
>>> ---- "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>>> I don't know if you meant it the way it sounds but I don't think you
>>>> have to be a hotshot to program in java or python.
>>>>
>>>> I was once in a job interview and they asked me which programming
>>>> languages I knew. I said I know all of them. Give me a week with any
>>>> programming language and I'll be an expert in it. Maybe not the
>>>> ultimate expert but an expert none the less. I got the job and they
>>>> said it was that answer more than any other that got me the job.
>>>>
>>>> IMO, it's important to look upon the challenge of learning something
>>>> new as an opportunity. Think of how much more valuable you'll be to
>>>> your company once you've learned that new programming language or
>>>> operating system. Think of how proud you'll be of yourself for having
>>>> succeeded at something that even sighted people struggle with. IMO,
>>>> it's no different from blindness itself. It kinda sucks but the only
>>>> thing
>>>>
>>>> to do is to attack the challenge.
>>>> In fact, I'd say that's one way we blind people have the advantage. We
>>>> know how to overcome challenges.
>>>>
>>>> PS: I'm willing to admit that what I say above might not be literally
>>>> true.
>>>> For example, it may have taken me a little more than a week to become
>>>> an expert in java programming. That might even have taken 2 weeks. :-).
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
>>>> Freeman
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 10:15 PM
>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>
>>>> I concur completely with Steve's observations below. These days, in a
>>>> business or even government environment, less and less traditional
>>>> programming is being done and more and more what programming there is
>>>> is contracted out. Moreover, as Steve says, increasingly, businesses
>>>> and government are buying off-the-shelf software packages (some of
>>>> which are screen-reader-accessible and some of which are not). A few
>>>> hot-shot blind programmers are going into environments such as C# and
>>>> java and more are working in interpretive languages such as Pithon.
>>>> But, as Steve says, a number of us are going into other arenas such as
>>>> network administration.
>>>> Over the past few years, my government agency has gone from a HP
>>>> OpenVMS environment to a windows environment (alas, I wish my agency
>>>> had chosen
>>>> UNIX) and so I'm having to come up to speed rather quickly to become
>>>> an administrator of Windows Server ? 2008 R2 systems. When I began my
>>>> employment 33 years ago, I was actually doing systems programming in
>>>> assembly language and if we wanted data brought into our computer
>>>> systems, we wrote the routines directly to do this including the
>>>> drivers for the hardware that handled the data. No more. As Steve
>>>> says, we have a lot of SQL and other packages running on servers
>>>> running essentially what is Windows 7 on steroids -- Windows Server?
>>>> 2008
>>>> R2.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure I'd advise programming as a good entry-level job path
>>>> today either. But those who find it fascinating *can* find jobs. But
>>>> the environment is much more competitive and fast-paced than it once
>>>> was and many tasks these days are more one-off and less are continuing
>>>> maintenance of existing tasks, at least in my shop.
>>>>
>>>> And all this is complicated by the almost paranoid interest in
>>>> security these days. It often just about takes an act of Congress to
>>>> get a screen-reader on one's work station now, for example. This may
>>>> just be an artifact of the electric power system (where I work) but I
>>>> suspect it goes further than this. I remember some time this year when
>>>> one fellow was trying to figure out how to hook up his laptop with all
>>>> his specialized blind-friendly programming tools on secure corporate
>>>> networks where such connectivity is basically forbidden. I have
>>>> somewhat the same problem in that I can't hook up my BrailleSensePLUS
>>>> to my workstation without violating policies.
>>>>
>>>> So the environment isn't as straightforward as it once was.
>>>>
>>>> And I, too, take extra time and seldom put in for comp time even
>>>> though I'm allowed to. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.
>>>>
>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>> Jacobson
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 12:12 PM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>
>>>> Generally I would agree with both of you, too, but what I would say
>>>> for my two cents is that I don't know that I would start out now as a
>>>> programmer if I was looking to work for a company. Certainly there
>>>> are still programming jobs, but there are not the jobs there used to
>>>> be. It is much, much more common now for companies to buy software
>>>> that they can use to perform many of the functions they used to
>>>> accomplish with in-house systems that were designed and written by
>>>> their programmers and analysts. When companies need to have
>>>> programming done, it is far more common now to contract it out or even
>>>> outsource it to off-shore locations.
>>>> However, there is a lot of need yet for people who are skilled in
>>>> database design and knowing how to work with databases which includes
>>>> a thorough knowledge of SQL. SQL isn't programming but is rewarding
>>>> and challenging in its own way. There is quite a bit being done with
>>>> networking, too, and there are some blind people who are involved with
>>>> network administration.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, if one is thinking of developing software and wants to
>>>> write it some themselves, a programming language is very important.
>>>> Also, if one has his or her eyes on a specific area where programming
>>>> is common, learning a programming language is still a good idea. I
>>>> also think there is value to be gained by learning a programming
>>>> language and writing something just to get a sense of what is
>>>> necessary. I wonder, though, what the success rate is for blind
>>>> persons or anyone for that matter, going to school to learn a
>>>> programming language and then getting a good job. I am in a position
>>>> where I work that occasionally has me looking at a COBOL program to
>>>> see what is wrong with it. We still run a good bit of COBOL here, but
>>>> the maintenance of COBOL is contracted out. My value to my company,
>>>> probably more than programming, is my in depth knowledge of how the
>>>> business processes relate to our computer systems. That has allowed
>>>> me to take that expertise and bring it with me as I changed to a
>>>> different computer platform, working primarily with databases. Like
>>>> John, I anticipated where the need would be and felt I could do all
>>>> right in the SQL environment and found reasons to learn quite a bit
>>>> about that, some on my own time, so when there was a push in that
>>>> direction, I had at least some of the tools I needed. For someone
>>>> just starting out in this field, it is very important to look at the
>>>> entire field, get some idea of what is interesting and also what fits
>>>> ones strengths. One also needs to look at what one can do for a long
>>>> enough time to get some understanding of how a given employer does
>>>> business even if it isn't ideal, knowing one might be able to move into
>>>> something they like better having gained that experience.
>>>>
>>>> Fifteen years ago, I would never have believed what a mixed bag
>>>> accessibility still is. Unfortunately, there are going to be
>>>> companies who are using tools that are inaccessible enough to make
>>>> working for that company a loosing bet. I still maintain a hope that
>>>> things will continue to improve, but it can still be a factor.
>>>> Sometimes it is clearly the developers of software who are to blame,
>>>> but some of the problem is that screen reader developers just don't
>>>> have time to implement newer technologies that could be accessible
>>>> because they are so busy chasing the development of the latest
>>>> operating systems. I don't know the answer to that particular
>>>> problem. Anyway, there are probably no exact answers, but hopefully
>>>> our
>>>> responses provide some useful food for thought.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 13:21:39 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >I pretty much agree with everything you say below although I might
>>>> >not paint quite such a dark picture. But, yeah, I feel I've
>>>> been successful in my career by working harder than everybody else,
>>>> putting in extra time to make up for being slower than the sighted
>>>> guys, and doing a lot of research on my own time.
>>>>
>>>> >I also agree with the point about keeping your skills up. There is
>>>> >this phenomenon I call "backwatering". New technologies tend
>>>> to be inaccessible so a blind technologist doesn't get the assignment
>>>> of working with them. Slowly, he becomes less and less crucial to his
>>>> company because he's working with old technology. Then when layoffs
>>>> come around, he's the one to go. And in some ways, that's only fair.
>>>> After all, he is the least important member of the team.
>>>>
>>>> >IMO, its important to be very aggressive in pursuing new technologies.
>>>> >I taught myself on my own time almost all the skills I use
>>>> in my current job. I am sure there are jobs where that isn't necessary
>>>> but they are few and far between. Also, to some degree it depends on
>>>> what you want out of your career. I work for the University of
>>>> Wisconsin and they don't layoff people very often. But a few years
>>>> ago, I went to my boss and said I thought my skills were being wasted
>>>> and that I could do a lot more, he said, "What's your problem? You're
>>>> still getting paid, aren't you?" But I wasn't satisfied just pulling
>>>> down a paycheck. Plus, I figured that eventually they'd get around to
>>>> getting rid of me. So I switched jobs and got into a different
>>>> department.
>>>>
>>>> >----Original Message-----
>>>> >From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> >majolls at cox.net
>>>> >Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:31 AM
>>>> >To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> >Cc: Tracy Carcione
>>>> >Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>
>>>> >Working in the computer field is a challenging experience, especially
>>>> >for a
>>>> blind person (well partially sighted in my case).
>>>> Here are some things to consider:
>>>>
>>>> >Know your craft thoroughly. Be as prepared with your programming
>>>> >languages as you possibly can be. Corporations are looking for
>>>> people that can solve a problem quickly and who know where to go look
>>>> when
>>>> they don??"t know the answers. Therefore, you need to
>>>> be as knowledgeable as you possibly can be in whatever programming
>>>> languages you decide to work in.
>>>>
>>>> > Know your weaknesses and have solutions in place before you go get
>>>> > the job. It??"s a competitive environment out there and the
>>>> people that can get the job done right in the shortest amount of time
>>>> at the least cost are the ones that seem to rise to the top at least in
>>>> my
>>>>
>>>> company.
>>>> You need to know any limitations your disability places on you and you
>>>> need to have a solution BEFORE you go to the job so it doesn??"t hurt
>>>> you in your career and you can keep up with the normally sighted
>>>> people. For example, my reading speed is about 130wpm. A normal
>>>> person
>>>> reads at about 250wpm.
>>>> You can see it will take me twice as long reading as someone else. In
>>>> my daily job, I??"m constantly reading code on the computer monitor.
>>>> So you can see how a normal person without any vision issues will
>>>> finish things before me. Doing your best in this case is not good
>>>> enough because you??"ll always be coming in last. And that equates to
>>>> less money at your performance review. Trust me, I have 30+ years of
>>>> experience to back me up on this. If you think Braille, for example,
>>>> will help overcome slow reading, or using programs such as Jaws, learn
>>>> it BEFORE you get to the job so there??"s no chance of supervisors
>>>> forming
>>>>
>>>> opinions of how you work.
>>>>
>>>> >Know that the job will eventually change, and sooner than later. In
>>>> >my job, new technologies are always coming up. The company
>>>> is looking for faster and better ways of doing things. And that means
>>>> they??"re trying new programming languages, new things to make us
>>>> meaner and leaner programmers. And that means that you have to learn
>>>> quickly, and probably more often than you would like. You may be
>>>> required (not by your employer but just by the fact that you have to
>>>> keep up) to spend extra hours in the evening learning if you don??"t
>>>> have enough time during the day. The years of learning a few things
>>>> for your job and doing that for 5-10 years are gone. Figure on having
>>>> to relearn your job every couple of years depending on what new thing
>>>> is
>>>> coming out.
>>>> You have to ask yourself if you feel like keeping up like that all
>>>> the time, or if your disability will put limitations on you there.
>>>> You are definitely under pressure in these situations.
>>>>
>>>> >Be prepared to work overtime. If you??"re in a professional job such
>>>> >as I am and you??"re not as fast as others, it??"s going to
>>>> take you more hours to do the same work in a time-frame that an
>>>> employer considers normal. I??"ve come to the conclusion I can
>>>> probably never please my employer. Or, if you have to do the training
>>>> thing, you may not get it all done in the course of 8 hours. In my
>>>> job, an 8 hour day is the thing of the past. I work more like a 10
>>>> hour day just to stay even .. to make up for my poor eyesight. Even
>>>> with technology such as screen magnification and speech, and Braille,
>>>> I still work a 10 hour day. With the demands of the job, it??"s just
>>>> the
>>>> standard.
>>>>
>>>> >So consider all these things. Perhaps you can assess your situation
>>>> >and justify going into computer programming. It is a good
>>>> career, but to keep up and compete is a challenge. It??"s even moreso
>>>> with a vision disability in my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> >I don't want to throw cold water on things, but I've had a lot of
>>>> >frustration in my career. It's no fun when you come in second
>>>> most of the time and people seem to move ahead of you and nothing
>>>> seems to work.
>>>>
>>>> >---- Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>>>> >> When I was looking for work with my programming certificate, I got
>>>> >> an offer from the IRS, but the salary was very low, and any
>>>> >> programming would have to be approved by head office in DC. I
>>>> >> declined the offer, and soon got a much better one. Even though I
>>>> >> started at a low, trainee salary, it was still significantly better
>>>> >> than the IRS was offering. Though perhaps IRS salaries are the same
>>>> >> across the country, and only low when compared to average New York
>>>> >> salaries.
>>>> >> Tracy
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > I googled tfor info on the program. A link is below. A one
>>>> >> > paragraph summary is as follows...
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >> Program Description: The Programming curriculum prepares clients
>>>> >> >> to work
>>>> >> > in a wide range of programming
>>>> >> >> environments including .NET and JAVA, and other application
>>>> >> >> projects as
>>>> >> > well. Certification exams for JAVA and
>>>> >> >> Microsoft Certified Professional Developer (MCPD) are offered
>>>> >> >> through the
>>>> >> > program. Some prior programming
>>>> >> >> experience is helpful, but not necessary to be successful in
>>>> >> >> this course.
>>>> >> > This program often offers the opportunity to get
>>>> >> >> a commitment for employment with the Internal Revenue Service.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > http://lwsb.org/index.php/general-overview/vocational-catalog/#co
>>>> >> > nt
>>>> >> > e
>>>> >> > nt
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Wasn't it this list where we just had a huge debate about java?
>>>> >> > I'm thinking java programming might be making a huge comeback in
>>>> >> > writing apps for mobile phones. But I'll admit I don't really
>>>> >> > know what I'm talking about. I would note, however, that the link
>>>> >> > above indicates that the Lions web site itself is written in php,
>>>> >> > not .net or
>>>> java.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>>>> >> > Carcione
>>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 9:38 AM
>>>> >> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Hi Daniel.
>>>> >> > I got a programming certificate, after I found I was going
>>>> >> > nowhere with my college degree. I looked around, and found a
>>>> >> > certificate course that taught the languages employers were
>>>> >> > looking for at the time. It was local, not out-of-state.
>>>> >> > If you do go to Lions World, try to make sure that they are
>>>> >> > teaching languages that will actually be in demand.
>>>> >> > Learning programming was a very good move for me. I have a
>>>> >> > secure job that pays well, and is usually interesting. I'm not
>>>> >> > sure if the IRS job pays well, or is interesting.
>>>> >> > My brother is also a blind programmer, working for subcontractors
>>>> >> > to the government. He gets paid OK, but gets laid off every few
>>>> >> > years.
>>>> >> > So your results may vary. But I think he'd rather be programming
>>>> >> > than having a rather dull but secure IRS job.
>>>> >> > HTH.
>>>> >> > Tracy
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >> Hello Everyone:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> I hope this is the appropriate forum for this question.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> I am legally blind with a background in engineering and
>>>> >> >> manufacturing.
>>>> >> >> After
>>>> >> >> talking with many blind engineers, I find that many of them are
>>>> >> >> thriving computer programmers.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> I am now trying to decide whether to go to Lions World in Little
>>>> >> >> Rock to take their 10 month computer programming course. My
>>>> >> >> counselor at my states agency for the blind wants me to go to
>>>> >> >> Lions World but to take one of their IRS courses, which would in
>>>> >> >> essence be a guaranteed job with the Feds.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> I am the type of person who could do any job, at least that is
>>>> >> >> what my aptitude tests tell me.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> What is life like for blind computer programmers? Do most work
>>>> >> >> for employers or as freelancers/contractors? Are there any
>>>> >> >> languages in particular I should focus on? Are there any other
>>>> >> >> ways of learning computer programming as a blind person than
>>>> >> >> going out of
>>>> state?
>>>> >> >> Learning on my own is just not working for me.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Any advice you can give would be appreciated.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Regards
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Daniel Garcia
>>>> >> >> Northville, MI
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
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>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
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